Show Notes
In this episode of Peaceable and Kind, Derek Vreeland introduces a vision he has been articulating for years—a way of understanding both his own spiritual journey and the identity of the church he serves, Word of Life Church in St. Joseph, Missouri. Derek describes it as a_holy convergence_: the coming together of the gifts and wisdom of multiple Christian traditions within one church centered on Jesus.
While many churches identify primarily with one denomination or stream of Christianity, Derek reflects on how his church has been shaped by influences from across the historic Christian tradition: Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism, Anabaptism, Classic Evangelicalism, and Pentecostalism. Rather than focusing on division or doctrinal tribalism, this episode explores what each tradition uniquely contributes to the life of the Church.
Drawing on voices like Jaroslav Pelikan, G. K. Chesterton, and Brian Zahnd, Derek reflects on the difference between tradition and traditionalism, the beauty of learning from the whole Church, and the need for Christians to recover humility, curiosity, and unity in a polarized age.
This episode serves as an introduction to a forthcoming series exploring seven Christian traditions and the unique gifts each brings to the body of Christ.
Key Takeaways
- Every church has traditions, even contemporary non-denominational churches.
- Tradition is not inherently bad. It is the collective wisdom of the past handed down through generations.
- Traditionalism is different from tradition; it is “the dead faith of the living.”
- No single Christian tradition contains the fullness of Christian experience.
- Christians are enriched when they learn from the whole Church.
- The Church is one house with many windows, different perspectives illuminating the same light.
- Unity does not require uniformity.
- A “holy convergence” values the gifts of multiple traditions while remaining centered on Jesus.
Scriptures Mentioned
- 2 Thessalonians 2:15
- 1 Corinthians 11:2
- Mark 7:8–9
- Romans 11:33
- Acts 1:8
Has Peaceable and Kind been meaningful to you? Support the show by:
Leaving a review
Giving us a 5-star rating on your podcast app
Sharing this episode with a friend
Order Derek’s new Bible Study Series, God in the Neighborhood: Book 1: Incarnation: 8 Lessons on How God Meets Us || https://amzn.to/42jSZAs Book 2: Crucifixion: 8 Lessons on How God Saves Us || https://amzn.to/459bNUk Book 3: Resurrection: 8 Lessons on How God Restores Us || https://amzn.to/40T0sp0
Check out the Merch Store: derekvreeland.com/merch
Learn more about Derek’s work as a pastor and author: derekvreeland.com
Interact with Derek on Instagram, Twitter, Bluesky, or Facebook
Transcript
Welcome back to another episode.
Of Peaceable and Kind.
I am your host, Derek Vreeland.
And before we jump into today’s episode, let me encourage you to leave a rating or review and subscribe to Peaceable and Kind.
Wherever you are listening to this podcast.
And if you enjoy what we’re doing, if you wouldn’t mind sharing this episode or a previous episode with a friend, I would appreciate it.
Well, on today’s episode, I am excited to share with you a new project
that I’ve been working on.
This is something that I have been trying to articulate
For a number of years, but I’m taking time this summer to flesh out a really, really big idea
Because as you know, I am a pastor, and I have tried over the years to describe
the church where I serve as a pastor.
People will often move away and they will look for a church in their new location, like our church.
And I’ve told them that
It’s just hard to reduplicate what we’re doing.
It’s hard to find a church like ours.
But Word of Life Church in St.
Joseph, Missouri, where I have been
The discipleship pastor for 15 years is a unique church, but it’s also in another sense a normal church.
I mean, we have worship on Sunday mornings, we have a
thriving children’s ministry and youth ministry, we have small groups, we serve our community in various ways.
We are we are normal in that sense, and we’re normal in the sense that we have
normal people with normal problems and our church has the normal stresses and challenges as well as a whole lot of
victories and and stories of the goodness of God.
So in one sense, we are just another church.
But we’re also pretty unique.
And we’re unique in a lot of ways.
And one of the reasons I think we are so unique.
is that we have been influenced by various Christian denominations and traditions.
So when new people they come and they they join our church and they ask, well, what kind of church is Word of Life?
I typically ask, well, where do you come from?
What kind of church background do you have?
Because that gives me a starting point in which I can describe our church.
And I can use the term interdenominational
Because we are a church that are that is made up of people from different denominations, and we’ve been influenced by different traditions and denominations.
But I don’t know if that’s the best way to describe us.
Interdenominational sounds pretty clinical to me.
My typical response is when people ask, what kind of church is word of life?
I say that we are a Jesus church.
We are a church that strives to remain faithful to Jesus.
We want to make
disciples of Jesus, we want to live authentically as citizens of the kingdom of Jesus
And so in addition to that, that we’re very focused on Jesus, I’ll also say that we are a church where many
Different Christian traditions are coming together in a holy convergence.
And that’s
That’s what I want to talk about in this episode, what it looks like to be a church of a holy convergence.
Now, before I jump into that, I keep using the word tradition.
Different Christian traditions have influenced us.
So let’s talk a little bit about tradition.
First, all Christians and all churches have traditions.
Even so-called contemporary non-denominational churches have traditions.
Now, our church could be identified as contemporary and non-denominational
But often the churches that really lean into that contemporary vibe mean we’re contemporary because our music is contemporary.
We’re not one of those churches that just has
organs and piano for the instrumentation during the singing portion of worship.
But when I’m talking about
Christian traditions, I’m not really talking about the style of music.
I’m really talking about
Theological and church traditions.
That is the traditions that shape a movement or a denomination.
So the second thing I want to say about tradition is that in a sort of pure definition, tradition is the collective wisdom of the past that has been handed down to us.
So when I think of Christian tradition or traditions plural, I’m thinking about the wisdom of the past that has been handed down to us in the present.
And the Apostle Paul, in a couple of places in the New Testament, talks about tradition in this way.
So for example, 2 Thessalonians 2.
15, Paul writes, So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions.
that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
And then again in First Corinthians 11, verse 2, Paul writes,
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I had handed them onto you
So Paul doesn’t talk about commandments here, the commandments we receive from Jesus.
He’s talking about traditions.
And this is in the very early apostolic church, in the first century church
Right?
The wisdom of the past wasn’t that far in the past, but there was some wisdom that Paul has handed over to these churches and encourages them to
stand firm to maintain these traditions.
So all churches have them, even the early church had traditions.
Third, I freely admit that tradition can become bad.
Traditionalism can certainly get us off course.
Traditions can take us off the path of discipleship.
Which is why Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their maintaining certain traditions.
This is in Mark chapter 7, verses 8 and 9.
Jesus says, you abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.
Then he said to them, You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
So when our traditions cause us to disobey God, then tradition can become bad.
But traditions in and of themselves are not a bad thing.
Jaroslav Pelikan, who taught church history at Yale for years and years and years, once said, tradition is the living faith of the dead
Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living.
And I suppose I should add, it is traditionalism that gives tradition such a bad name
So there are these practices that have been handed down to us by those who have gone before us who had a vibrant, active, living faith.
And those practices are what we call tradition.
G.
K.
Chesterton, in his very famous book, Orthodoxy,
Defines tradition this way.
He says, tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors.
It is the democracy of the dead.
Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about.
Chesterton was not only brilliant, but I love his dry wit.
A little bit of sarcasm in here.
I love this definition, though, of tradition.
Tradition is the democracy of the dead.
Tradition is giving votes to our ancestors.
And so traditions establish patterns and habits
Which are key for spiritual formation.
The question is not whether or not we’re going to have traditions, because again, all churches have traditions.
The question is, will our traditions cause us to grow in holiness, to grow in love?
Do they draw us closer to the heart of God?
Do our traditions enable us to become more like Jesus?
And there isn’t just one Christian tradition
Because over the 2,000-year history of Christianity, the church has fractured and splintered
Into different denominations and movements and institutions.
And while I do lament the fracturing of the church, I’ve come to see
that there is value in the whole church.
And even though we do not agree on some finer points of doctrine or theology,
There is one church that has unity in Jesus.
And even though our traditions might differ, there’s value.
In all of these different traditions, there’s value in the whole church, the entire body of Christ, not just the tribe.
I come from or the tribe I feel most comfortable in.
I came to faith in an evangelical context
In a Southern Baptist church.
I was trained theologically and pastorally at a Pentecostal seminary and a Wesleyan seminary.
But over the years, I just recognize that I have been influenced by Catholic and Orthodox theologians
I’ve been influenced by Anglicans, Protestants, Anabaptists, as well as classic evangelicalism and Pentecostal charismatic Christians
And instead of searching for what I disagree with in each of these traditions, I’ve begun to reflect
On how the richness and uniqueness of these traditions have come together to influence not only me
as an individual, as a pastor, as a Christian thinker and author, but how this holy convergence of traditions has influenced the church where I serve.
And I think that I am a part of something God is doing.
That’s why I call it a holy convergence.
It’s holy in the sense that I believe that this, if you’d like to call it
ecumenical movement.
It’s something that the Holy Spirit is doing.
It’s a holy convergence of traditions
And I think that is what Christians and the unbelieving world is looking for.
Because
At a time of hostility and division and polarization, both Christians and non-Christians are looking for things that unite us.
And for too long, Christians have allowed the so-called heresy hunters to blind us
From the key and core beliefs that unite us, and they have caused us to reject
out and out reject other Christian traditions because they don’t always line up with how I interpret scripture.
And to be honest with you, I’ve just seen way too much spiritual elitism and arrogance.
Too many Christians who believe that their tribe, their tradition, their movement, their denomination is the only one and is the best or the purest.
Expression of the Christian faith.
And it’s time for us to repent of that elitism and arrogance
And it is time for us to recognize what the apostle Paul said about the church, and that is that we are one body with many members.
And that means that no single tradition contains the fullness of Christian experience
Every Christian stream has its strengths and weaknesses, and I just believe that we are better served if we put down our denominational banners.
repent of our spiritual elitism and start listening to one another and learning from each other
And so I’ve started thinking about the church like a house with many windows
And this image comes to me from a recurring dream I’ve had for years.
I don’t know if you have like the same dream over and over, but for years, I would say for decades
I have had this dream about being in this large house.
And normally in my dream we own the house
Because as I look around the house, I don’t recognize the house is nothing I’ve ever seen.
But in the house, there will be furniture or there’ll be something from my house here.
So in my dream, normally we own this big house.
It’s a large, it’s an old house, and it has all of these secret passageways.
It has multiple levels.
And in my dream, I know that there is backdoor access, secret passageway access to the attic, and I’m always scared to go up there.
I and in my dream, I’m usually filled with a little anxiety because in one sense I’m curious and I want to go up into that attic, but then I think it’s haunted and it kind of freaks me out.
And so recently I started wondering.
What would this big old house in my dream look like in the daytime?
Because normally when I’m dreaming about this house, I’m always in the house at night when it’s dark
But what would this house look like during a bright, sunny summer afternoon
And what if, instead of fear, intrepidation, that I walk through this house with curiosity?
What if I walked into the various rooms of this house in the light of day and watched how the rooms were illuminated differently by the light?
In other words, what if the church is one house with many different windows?
And looking out these windows is a way for us to explore
the different traditions that are out there.
The lead pastor of our church, Brian Zahn, once used the image of a menorah
To talk about the different traditions that have influenced us.
And I think the menoria is a great image because there’s there’s one light, but there’s seven flames.
But I’ve been working through in my mind, what if we use the metaphor of one house with different windows?
A house with seven
different predominant windows that give us access into seven different traditions.
And Brian mentions seven specific traditions that have influenced us, including Eastern Orthodoxy.
Roman Catholicism, the Anglican Communion, Mainline Protestantism, the Anabaptist movement, classic evangelicalism, and the Pentecostal Charismatic Movement
And what Brian has said, and I completely agree, is that we need all seven.
We need
the uniqueness and the riches from each of these traditions, especially Orthodox mystery
Catholic beauty, Anglican liturgy, Protestant Audacity, Anabaptist peacemaking
Evangelical energy and Pentecostal reality.
Now, Brian gave us this list, and I love it
Because not only has this list of seven things influenced our church, but it has deeply influenced me.
Our church, and myself included, we have been shaped by a holy convergence of these seven Christian traditions.
And I’m not saying that these are the only contributions of each of these seven, but these seven things I think are important and worth exploring.
So on this episode, I simply want to introduce you to these seven different Christian traditions and the seven things that they offer us, the seven things that are shaping us.
And then I am going to dedicate an episode to each of the seven.
And so this is the beginning of a mini-series.
Eight episodes on the holy convergence.
This one, an overview of the seven and the whole idea of traditions and convergence.
And then there’ll be an episode that explores each one in detail.
But let’s begin with Eastern Orthodoxy
Hey friends, I want to pause this episode for just a moment to let you know that Resurrection, 8 Lessons on How God Restores Us, the third and final book in the God in the Neighborhood Bible study.
series is out now.
Go to the show notes for ordering information
One of the great gifts of the Orthodox tradition is mystery.
Orthodoxy reminds us that God is knowable
God is personal, but never fully comprehensible.
In the book of Romans, Paul ends a very complex section
chapters nine, ten, and eleven with a doxology of sorts.
Romans is a very complex book.
I’ve been asked over the years by people in my church, would I do a verse by verse study of the book of Romans?
And I have said no up to this point, in part because it would take me too long.
It would probably take me 52 weeks, a whole year.
To walk through Romans.
But one of the ways to parse through the nuances and the difficulty of the book of Romans is to see it in sections.
And so chapters 1 through 4 is a section.
Chapters 5, 6, 7, and 8 are a section.
Chapters 9 through 11 are a section.
And then chapters 12 through 16 ended out.
But this section, chapter 9, 10, and 11, to me is the most difficult part of Romans.
It’s still difficult for me to understand.
I’m still working on it.
And it is complex, which is why at the end of chapter 11, Paul goes into this doxology.
And that doxology opens with these lines: this is Romans 11:33.
O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable are his judgments, how inscrutable his ways.
While there is a lot we can say about the knowledge of God, the best place to start
In growing to know who this God is, this God revealed in Jesus, we first start with mystery.
We first start by acknowledging what is unknowable about God.
Because God is not an object in our universe to be studied.
You can’t see God with a microscope or a telescope.
We use the word theology, but theology is not like biology, the study of biological life.
Theology, theo, comes from the Greek theos.
Theology is not so much a study of God, because you can’t study God like you study plants and animals and and the physical earth.
Because again, God is not an object in our universe.
So theology is not so much the study of God, but a study of how God has revealed God’s self to us.
So there’s a lot that we can know about God because of God’s revelation.
But without that
Without the grace of God revealing the nature of God to us through creation and scripture and sacrament, tradition.
the church through reason, through experience, and ultimately through Jesus, without God’s act of revelation, we would be at a loss.
Because God is ultimately a mystery.
And the Orthodox tradition reminds us of that, and we should start there.
Brian Zahn has often said, we will always confess more than we can explain.
And that, my friends, is a good thing.
And the mystery of God is not something hidden that God doesn’t want us to know, but the mystery of God.
Think about the mystery of the Holy Trinity.
This is uh an invitation.
The mystery of God is an invitation to go exploring.
And the Orthodox tradition reminds us of that.
Then we move on to Catholic beauty.
The Roman Catholic tradition reminds us that the gospel is not only true and good, it is also beautiful.
These three form the transcendentals from ancient Greek philosophy.
The ancient Greeks were interested in the true, the good, and the beautiful.
And beauty has intrinsic value of its own, just like truth and goodness.
I mean, truth is valuable not just because what it can produce.
But truth is objectively good.
Goodness is not valuable simply because it can help us make right decisions.
Goodness is valuable in and of itself.
As it’s been said, virtue has its own reward.
And so just like with truth and goodness, beauty is valuable not just in the sense of pleasure we receive from it.
But because the form and splendor of beauty communicates to us something of the knowledge of God
And we need to recover that because so many modern Christians are suspicious of beauty because we’ve become too
easily comforted by utility and efficiency and pragmatism and the things that just simply work
But let’s be honest, human beings are shaped by beauty.
Think about a beautiful song.
Think about how beautiful music opens up your heart.
Think about a beautiful stained glass window in a beautiful cathedral, how it can preach a sermon to you
Think about how a well-prepared meal at a table can open up hospitality and become sacramental.
Think about a beautiful sunset at the beach or a beautiful sunrise over a mountain range.
There is something about beauty
that captures our heart and speaks to us about the nature of God.
And the Catholic tradition reminds us of that.
Then we move on to Anglicanism, the Anglican or Episcopal tradition.
And the Anglican gift to us is liturgy
And yes, there are Catholic and Orthodox liturgies, but Anglican liturgy compiled in the Book of Common Prayer
is the first liturgy to be composed originally in English.
The liturgies from the Orthodox are translated from Greek
Liturgies from Roman Catholics are translated from Latin, but the Book of Common Prayer originally compiled in the 16th century
as a part of the English Reformation is such a gift to the English speaking world
The Book of Common Prayer offers rhythm, prayer, sacred repetition, and Anglicans understand something profoundly important.
We become what we repeatedly do.
Every human being has a set of liturgies, a set of
rituals or routines, whether you’re religious or not.
We all have our patterns, our habits, our routines.
Think about your morning routine.
I have a coffee routine in the morning.
Some people, their morning routine includes scrolling on their phones or working through news cycles or purchasing something.
All of these practices are shaping us.
And so the Anglican tradition has given us a prayer book filled with liturgies of prayer.
The Book of Common Prayer is where I’ve discovered the Daily Office Lectionary, which is now how I do my daily Bible reading.
And that’s their great gift.
Again, other traditions have liturgies, but for me and for our church, the Anglican tradition has given us such a rewarding gift.
in the gift of liturgy.
Let’s move on to Protestantism.
Now Anglicanism is a part of the Reformation and
they would consider themselves Protestants, but I’m drawing a distinction between the Anglican Communion and mainline Protestantism, and I’m thinking in part about Martin Luther.
Because the Protestant gift is audacity.
That is the courage to reform.
Martin Luther stood against corruption and insisted that Scripture must critique tradition, not the other way around.
Even though tradition has its place, and I’ve already talked about that, right?
Tradition has its place.
Tradition is good
in as far as it goes, but Scripture is our sacred writings and therefore have a privileged place in judging and evaluating our traditions.
The Protestant instinct, that audacity within the Protestant spirit, keeps asking, are we still centered on the gospel?
Are we remaining faithful to the ways of Jesus revealed in the scriptures?
There is something to be said for that courage of heart.
that audacity to challenge what we’re doing and to evaluate what we’re doing as the people of God.
And asking, is this faithful to the ways of Jesus?
And these questions are important because every institution can drift
Right?
Every tradition has the possibility to harden and become traditionalism.
That is dead religion.
And dead religion is like bad art.
It’s hard to define, but you know it when you see it.
So every movement that births a new tradition has the temptation towards self-preservation.
And because of that, traditions can go off the rails, so we need Protestant audacity.
Then we come to the Antibaptists, the radical reformers.
And I think that these are some of the most prophetic voices that are needed today.
When I talk about the Anabaptist, I’m thinking about the Mennonites.
Because the Anabaptist tradition insists
that Jesus meant what he said, particularly when Jesus taught us to love our enemies, to bless those who curse us, to turn the other cheek
And from an Anabaptist perspective, these are not just unattainable goals, but a radically new way of living life
Anabaptists remind us the kingdom of God does not advance through coercion or violence, but through co-suffering love.
And this begins to challenge every political instinct we have, because we often assume that evil must be defeated through coercion or domination.
But Jesus shows us, and the Anabaptists remind us, that Jesus defeats evil through the cross.
And so Anabaptist peacemaking has had such a deep influence on me and our church
Because we are a Jesus church focused on Jesus.
We want to walk in his ways.
We want to obey his teaching
And so we want to figure out what does it look like for us to have a political imagination, not shaped by elephants or donkeys, but by the slain lamb who sits on the throne.
And so we need Anabaptist peacemaking to keep us centered on Jesus.
The next tradition is classic evangelicalism.
Now, when I say evangelical, I mean evangelicalism in its historical sense
Sadly, the term evangelical has been associated with a right-wing or a hard right voting block.
But I’m not talking about that kind of evangelicalism.
I’m talking about classic historic evangelicalism that has nothing to do with how one votes.
But classic evangelicalism that had an emphasis on conversion, the born-again experience, scripture, a very high view of scripture, not just in worship.
but in how it feeds the the individual soul.
I’m thinking about evangelicalism that had a had a passion and a pursuit for holiness to be perfected in love
I’m thinking about classic evangelicalism with an emphasis on mission to take the gospel around the world.
So when I think about evangelicalism, I think first about John Wesley, who I believe is the father of evangelicalism.
but other voices like Tozer and Billy Graham and Martin Lloyd Jones.
And I’ll have a lot to say about evangelicalism because this is the tribe I come from.
But finally, the last, the seventh tradition in our holy convergence is Pentecostalism.
And the Pentecostal gift is an emphasis on that other world.
An immaterial world where God lives and God is at work.
Pentecostalism has a distinct spirituality
That reminds us that Christianity is not only intellectual, but it is a matter of spiritual encounter with God.
Because knowing about God is one thing.
Having God facts is one thing.
But knowing God experientially is something different.
And we experience God by the Holy Spirit.
So Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians remind us that
The Holy Spirit is still active, that the Spirit still speaks and empowers and gives gifts, that the Spirit still does miracles and is healing and transforming us.
And the Pentecostal, let’s call it, reality of access to this other world is necessary.
Because the Christian life is not a matter of willpower, but a willingness to open to the Spirit’s power.
Jesus says in Acts 1.
8, You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses.
In Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
The Holy Spirit and the reality
Of our connectivity to God, who is Spirit, is the great gift of Pentecostalism.
And so this holy convergence is about receiving the gifts
Offered to us by seven different traditions, gifts that are found in the whole church.
And it looks less like defending our tribe and more like
Learning to receive from one another.
And I believe that Christians who understand that the church is bigger than our denominations, our politics, our preferences
our subculture are the kind of Christians that can bring real change in our communities
When we recognize that our tradition is not the only one, but rather we live in one house.
There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
One church, one house, but a house with many windows.
There is one light
And the light of course is God Himself.
Jesus is that light
So I want to invite you to join us in this holy convergence.
We’ll spend the next seven episodes taking a deep dive into each of these seven traditions.
So make sure you subscribe and listen.
to all of these upcoming episodes.
Well that’s it for this episode.
That’s all I have for you.
Thank you for listening.
Go in peace and be kind.
This transcript was generated with AI and may contain errors.