Show Notes
In this episode of Peaceable and Kind, Derek Vreeland continues the Lenten journey through Fleming Rutledge’sThe Crucifixion, focusing on two powerful chapters: the Christus Victor image of the cross and Jesus’ descent into hell.
Christus Victor is the great battle metaphor of the atonement. At the cross, Jesus defeats the enslaving powers of Sin, Death, and the devil. These are not abstract ideas, but active forces holding humanity in bondage. Drawing from Colossians 2:15 and Romans 5-6, Rutledge frames the cross as apocalyptic, that is an an unveiling or revelation. The crucifixion reveals that Jesus is Lord. Authority has shifted. Sin and Death no longer reign. The Lamb who was slain now reigns at the center of the throne.
Derek clarifies key biblical language surrounding. Gehenna as a metaphor for final judgment, Hades (and Hebrew Sheol) as the realm of the dead. Jesus did not descend into Gehenna to be punished; his suffering was finished at the cross. Rather, the descent proclaims victory. Death is personified as a prison master, and Jesus is the liberator. Rutledge pushes us to take judgment seriously without exaggeration or sentimentality. Hell is best understood not as literal fire but as a domain where evil reigns, a tragic reality of separation from the life of God.
Finally, the discussion moves to the nature of evil. Following Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa, Rutledge affirms that evil is not a created substance but a privation of the good (privatio boni). Evil is real and destructive, but it lacks actual substance. Evil is like a hole in the ground. It does not have substance but it can trip us up. It cannot be explained away, only denounced and resisted. The Triune God comes in Christ to overthrow the unholy trinity of Sin, Death, and the devil. The gospel is deliverance from the grip of evil and victory belongs to Jesus.
Books Mentioned
- The Crucifixion — Fleming Rutledge
- Christus Victor — Gustaf Aulén
- The Great Divorce — C. S. Lewis
- Exclusion and Embrace — Miroslav Volf
Scriptures Mentioned
- Colossians 2:15
- Romans 5:21
- Romans 6:9, 14, 23
- 1 Peter 3
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Transcript
Walkin
Welcome back to another episode of Peaceable and Kind.
I am your host, Derek Vreeland.
And here during the season of Lent, we are walking through the pages of one of the most important.
Theological books written in the 21st century about the death of Jesus.
And that is a mouthful.
But I have read and am now rereading Fleming Rutledge’s The Crucifixion, and it is such an important book
But it’s a big book and it’s difficult.
We covered, I think, four chapters in the previous episode.
We’re only going to cover two in this episode, but you’ll want to buckle in.
Because this is going to be a theological education.
Ultimately, I want people to experience
the power of Jesus’ sacrificial death.
Because I believe that Christ crucified has the power to save
that it’s the blood of Jesus that cleanses and rescues us from sin.
That as we meditate on the cross and reflect on Jesus crucified, we become a cruciform kind of people.
The cross has the power to save, it has the power to transform, and ultimately that’s what I want you to experience.
But
If you are willing to continue with me on this theological journey, then we can together
grow in loving God with all of our minds by exploring some new ideas
So we’re going to cover two chapters in this episode, but before we jump in, let me invite you to subscribe to Peaceable and Kind, leave a rating and review if you know someone that might be interested.
in a deep dive into the theological meaning of the death of Jesus, then share this episode in the previous episodes of this mini-series
So we’re going to talk today about the Christus Victor image
Rutledge has a whole chapter devoted to that.
And then we’re also going to explore Jesus’ descent into hell.
We’re also going to talk a little bit about the nature of evil.
But before we jump into these chapters, I feel like we need to define some terms.
My senior year in high school, I took American government with Miss Newhart.
I don’t know how old Miss Newhart was when she was my teacher in the early 1990s, but she used to compare us to her classes in the 1950s.
By the way, she told us that we were not as good or as smart as her students in the fifties.
She would say things like, My students in the nineteen fifties would put you all to shame
Uh and she was wheelchair bound.
Miss Newhart um had MS.
And I think I was one of the final classes that she taught.
But she taught from her wheelchair and she held a ruler in her hand
Like a scepter when she taught.
And uh I’ll be honest, I was a little afraid of her, but she was a great teacher.
I learned so much.
And one of the things I learned from Miss Newhart.
Is that if you’re writing an essay, the first thing you need to do is define the pertinent terms.
I remember Miss Newhart saying that over and over.
Define the pertinent terms
So if we’re going to go on this theological conquest of Rutledge’s big book on the death of Jesus,
I think at least for this episode, well, probably every future episode as well, I should define some terms.
Because in theological studies, we have
Words, phrases that that sum up a lot of ideas.
So I want to define just two terms
This term Christus Victor, and then I also want to give a little definition to hell, what we mean by hell.
That’s a big topic.
But let me give you some working definitions.
First, Christus Victor
Is uh a Latin phrase, and it is the common title given to any of the battle images of the death of Jesus.
So Christus
referring to Christ, that’s Jesus, and Victor meaning victory.
So Christus Victor is all of the biblical images of Jesus winning a battle for us.
Jesus victorious over, in particular, sin, the devil, death, and hell
And so in the New Testament, these are not just abstract ideas.
They are enslaving powers from which Christ the Victor frees us.
So a biblical example would be Colossians 2.
15, where Paul uses some of this victory language and imagery, Colossians 2.
15, having disarmed
The rulers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross
The political and religious rulers and authorities thought they could suppress Jesus and his Kingdom of God movement by executing him, but Jesus
triumphed over them.
Jesus defeated the powers through his death.
So when we say Christus victor, we mean any of the biblical images that speak of Jesus’ death as some great victory.
Now, the second chapter we’re going to look at in this episode is Jesus Descent into Hell.
So let’s get some just working definitions of what we mean.
Now, I know that hell is a controversial topic.
And honestly, it really shouldn’t be, but I know it is.
Uh Kurt Cameron recently.
If you don’t know Kurt Cameron, he was a teenage television star from Growing Pains.
I remember watching that as a kid.
And uh these days he’s he’s pretty vocal about his faith.
And he recently announced that he believes in the doctrine of annihilationism
that for him hell is not people living forever in flames, but that they cease to exist, that the soul is annihilated in hell
And that is a Christian interpretation.
It’s not mine, but it’s one that’s been around.
There’s a number of notable theologians, uh John Stott being one, that believe in this version of hell.
And I guess, because I don’t really follow him, I just kind of on the outskirts, I guess a lot of his devotees were freaking out
And so, yeah, I know hell can be so controversial and honestly, it it shouldn’t, but
Let’s just get back to defining the pertinent terms.
Yes, I hear Ms.
Newhart saying, Derek, define the pertinent terms.
When we talk about hell, there are a number of Greek words in the New Testament that are translated hell.
I want to focus on just two of them, uh, the two that appear in the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
One is Gehenna.
It’s used eleven times in the Gospels, and Gehenna is a reference to the valley of Hinnem, which is south of Jerusalem that was used as the garbage dome.
So Gehenna was a real place.
It’s the Valley of Hinnem.
And there uh trash would be burned.
Now, if you go back into the Old Testament and Jeremiah, there was even child sacrifices that took place in this valley
So it was a foreboding place, and quite literally it was a place where the fire was not quenched, because they were always burning trash, and the worm dieth not.
uh because any kind of organic matter thrown in this field, there would be there would be worms.
So this very literal place, Gehenna, was used as a metaphor
for final judgment.
And I’ll have more to say about Gehenna, but let me emphasize the metaphor.
Okay.
The other Greek word that is used to uh reference hell, or this Greek word is translated hell.
is the word Hades.
It’s used four times in the Gospels, and Hades from Greek mythology was the underworld.
And the general understanding by both Greek-minded people and Jewish people was that Hades was the place where dead people go.
It’s the abode of the dead.
Rutledge will make this connection that Hades in Greek is very similar to the Hebrew concept of Sheol.
Which is often translated in the Old Testament as the pit, as as the place where people go when they die.
As a little interesting side note, neither of these words, Gehenna or Hades, neither of them appear in John’s Gospel.
John doesn’t talk about that.
Interestingly enough, it’s not a predominant topic of Paul either, but
I want to get to Rutledge.
I just wanted to start by defining some terms.
So when we talk about Jesus’ descent into hell,
We are talking about Jesus’ descent into Hades.
This is what Rutledge means by hell.
Hades, not Gehenna.
Not the place of judgment, not the place of eternal punishment.
So Jesus’ descent was not into a place of punishment
Jesus didn’t need to suffer in hell because all of Jesus’ suffering was done at the cross.
When Jesus said, it is finished on the cross, his suffering was finished.
So these two concepts.
Christus victor is all the biblical images around Jesus’ death winning for us a great victory, and Jesus’ descent to hell.
This is Jesus’ descent into that.
Abode of the Dead.
Okay, with our definitions laid out, let’s jump into Rutledge’s chapter on Christus Victor.
I really found this chapter helpful.
When I first read the book a couple years ago, because in the past I tended to preach the gospel not using victory language, not using the images.
of Christus Victor.
Tom Wright in T.
Wright emphasizes it, how Jesus’ death is a great victory over the powers, but I still, just in my preaching, I wasn’t utilizing it
But then in reading this chapter a few years ago, it did change my preaching.
I started emphasizing it because it is the gospel.
That Jesus has triumphed over the powers of sin and death through his resurrection.
So Rutledge in her chapter is
Framing Jesus’ victory over the power of sin and death and the devil and the grave and hell in terms of the apocalyptic
Which is another great theological term.
I told you on this episode, we’re taking a little theological journey.
And so you’re going to learn some theological words.
Apocalyptic is a theological concept that is rooted in a Greek word.
This episode should be sponsored by my big fat Greek wedding.
Because it’s true.
A lot of Christian theology and theological terms are are rooted in in the Greek.
But apocalyptic comes from a Greek word apocalypsis, which means to reveal or a revelation.
So think about the last book in the New Testament, the book of Revelation.
In Greek, that book of the Bible is called Apocalypsis.
Yo ano, that is the revelation of John.
Or sometimes in Greek, the title of the book of Revelation is Apocalypsis Yesu Kristu, that is
The revelation of Jesus Christ.
That’s the opening lines of Revelation 1.
So the book of Revelation, the Book of Apocalypse.
Is not a unveiling or revelation simply of the end times.
The book of
Revelation is an apocalypse of Jesus.
It’s a revealing
of Jesus ruling and reigning as the slain Lamb of God.
I don’t want to go too far down that road of revelation, but it is
Apocalyptic is an unveiling.
It is a revelation.
So for Rutledge, Jesus’ victory at the cross
Triumphing over the powers of sin, death, and the devil was a revelation.
It was an unveiling.
It was a revelation ultimately that Jesus is King, that Jesus is Lord, that Jesus is the most powerful person in the universe because he has triumphed over our biggest fears.
That would be death.
He has triumphed over that which has enslaved us, Satan and sin.
And now Jesus is in charge.
So understanding the death of Jesus as apocalyptic becomes for us a way of seeing which has
Immediate implications for how we live and how we read the Bible.
This understanding of Jesus revealing something at his cross
He is revealing the nature of God.
Jesus is revealing how the kingdom comes.
And Jesus is showing us how we live
And how we can triumph over the powers and over sin itself.
We don’t triumph by pure willpower and strength
but like Jesus at the cross through co-suffering and sacrificial love.
Now for Rutledge
This understanding of the apocalyptic or unveiling nature of Jesus’ death lays the foundation for her understanding
of Gustav Aulin’s Christus Victor metaphor.
Aulin is the one who coined the term Christus Victor.
So in this chapter, Rutledge works through that
Um because Allin would describe Jesus’ death as victory over the powers which hold mankind in bondage, that is sin, death, and the devil.
And Owlin and then Rutledge reviewing his work, both of them are drawing from Paul in Romans.
Because if you if you read the book of Romans, you see Paul personifying sin and death.
And according to the Apostle Paul, they have been reigning over humanity.
That’s Romans 5, 21.
But because of the death and resurrection of Jesus, Paul goes on to argue that death is no longer in charge.
Sin is no longer in charge.
Rather, eternal life is made possible, Paul writes in Romans 6.
23, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus is Lord, meaning Jesus is in charge.
So this is what is apocalyptic or revealing or unveiling through the death of Jesus.
That sin and death don’t reign anymore.
Sin and death aren’t in charge anymore.
Through his obedient, sacrificial death.
Jesus is now in charge.
Jesus is Lord.
I know Lord is a very archaic term.
I like to hang on to that language, but like a lot of words in our faith, Lord needs a little bit of definition.
But to call Jesus Lord is to say he’s in charge.
Think about a landlord.
If you’ve ever rented a house or apartment, you’ve had a landlord, right?
So you’ve got to pay rent every month.
And you, if you’re renting, you don’t own that apartment, you don’t own that house.
It belongs to the landlord.
You’re just renting that space.
And so when we call Jesus Lord, we are saying our lives don’t belong to us.
Our lives belong to Jesus.
He’s in charge.
So, this is an unveiling that Jesus in his great victory has become Lord and Savior.
And so for those of us
who in faith trust in Jesus are saying, We have seen something.
Sin and death, you’re no longer in charge.
Jesus is in charge, and because of his great victory, I’m going to trust.
In him.
Hey friends, I want to pause this episode for just a moment to let you know that Resurrection, eight lessons on how God restores us, the third and final book in the gospel.
God in the Neighborhood Bible Study Series is out now.
Go to the show notes for ordering information.
Now, when I was reading this a couple of years ago, one thing that really caught my attention
was in this chapter when Fleming Rutledge quotes from Miroslav Wolf from the end of his extremely important book, Exclusion and Embrace.
Uh there could be a a time where I do a podcast mini-series on Wolf’s book, Exclusion and Embrace.
It is theological.
It is a bit of a challenging read, but very, very important.
So Rutledge here is quoting Miroslav Wolf, and this quote stood out to me.
Wolf says, according to Rutledge,
The most surprising thing about Revelation is that at the center of the throne, holding together both the throne and the whole cosmos
that is ruled by the throng we find the sacrificed lamb.
With the lamb at the center of the throne,
The distance between the throne and the subjects has collapsed in the embrace of the triune God.
Now, here Wolf is talking about the victory of Jesus being displayed in the book of Revelation through this image of a slain lamb who reigns.
And when I read this, if you recall, I’ve written a book called Centering Jesus, how the Lamb of God
reshapes and transforms our our our understanding of spiritual formation and ethics and how we live together.
I think the understanding of Jesus as the Lamb of God is really important.
And when I read this a couple years ago, I’d already written Centering Jesus and it was in the editing phase.
And when I read this quote, I said
I have to have this quote in my book and I reached out to my editor and I said, please tell me it’s not too late to add one more paragraph.
And uh it wasn’t too late.
And so I got that quote in there and and I was so, so happy.
Okay, so
Rutch in this chapter will also have some disagreements with N.
T.
Wright over how important the apocalyptic nature of the death of Jesus is.
Uh but for me, that’s a theological minor point.
I think this apocalyptic reading is important.
um when we’re reading the New Testament, but so is Tom Wright’s Jewish reading of the New Testament.
I really think that we need both.
Okay, so I don’t want time to escape us.
So let’s move on to the next chapter
uh which is Jesus descent into hell.
This is the moment the peaceable and kind podcast goes to hell.
Now, this metaphor to explore the death of Jesus is also called, particularly in Orthodox circles, the harrowing of hell.
One thing I find interesting is that Jesus’ descent into hell is in the Apostles’ Creed, but it’s not in the Nicene Creed, which I find very interesting.
And actually, some Protestant traditions, their version of the Apostles’ Creed completely omits Jesus’ descent into hell.
For example, the United Methodist Church, in their liturgies, when they recite the Apostles’ Creed, they don’t include the line, he descended to the dead.
And I think that is in part because hell is so misunderstood and so controversial
But as I said in the beginning, in defining the pertinent terms, when we talk about Jesus descending to hell, both Rutledge and me, we’re talking about Jesus descending into Hades.
And so Rutledge is going to work with the biblical language, a little bit like I did in the introduction, so that we’re really clear.
But before she goes to define the terms,
She does note that there’s a tendency among modern people to want to dismiss hell and damnation.
And I recognize that Rutledge is an Episcopalian.
So I think that comment is much more for the progressive and liberal Protestant Christians
I come from more of the conservative side of the Christian church, where like the Reformed folks and evangelicals and Pentecostals have always emphasized hell.
Anyway, in this chapter, she continues to exhort us to wrestle with the biblical idea of hell
understood metaphorically rather than literally.
Now, this is one where I think she is exhorting the more conservative side of the church
Evangelical, and by the way, when I use the word evangelical, I’m using it in its theological sense, not its political sense
But the more kind of evangelical or fundamentalist Christians have tended to over-literalize hell, particularly the lake of fire and flames of hell.
So she’s speaking to that side of the church, which is where I come from, saying we need to understand Jesus’ descent into hell.
That concept of hell being metaphorical and not literal.
What we need is an honest and sober understanding
That hell is judgment.
It is future judgment.
But not to go into the hyper literal that that
judgment includes literal flames.
I mean, the idea that God ceaselessly and eternally tortures people with literal fire
burning their bodies and souls for all eternity?
I mean, that idea is reprehensible for me.
It’s absurd.
It’s wicked.
And don’t get me wrong, I believe in hell.
I do believe in an experience in the age to come that’s a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It’s a it’s an outer darkness.
But what makes hell so awful, at least in my understanding, is not so much that God is roasting human flesh over an open flame.
But what makes hell torturous is God is not there.
God’s grace is not there.
God’s presence is not there.
It’s like the gray town in C.
S.
Lewis’s The Great Divorce
If you want to know what I believe about hell, read C.
S.
Lewis’s book, The Great Divorce, and then we can talk.
I mean, I believe that there are historically many different interpretations of hell.
Now, the more fundamentalist, evangelical side of the church, they will want to say, Nope, there is only one, and there has only been one interpretation of hell.
That is historically incorrect.
Eternal Conscious Torment, which is the theological title for what I’ve been describing.
is only one interpretation of hell in the history of the church, and it’s one that I reject.
Now on the other side of the interpretive spectrum is Christian Universalism
This is the idea that hell is temporary, that it is a place of punishment and isolation.
And that in the age to come, Jesus will eventually rescue everyone out of hell.
But I reject Christian universalism just like I reject eternal conscious torment.
One, because I don’t believe that’s what Jesus is teaching.
And I I share C.
S.
Lewis’s skepticism
that people in hell would choose to accept God’s mercy and grace in the age to come, if indeed human choice continues, where I think it does.
So for me, somewhere in between these two extremes of God literally burning souls and bodies in hell on one side,
and Christian Universalism on the other side.
I think in between those two extremes there is the truth
I mean, I do believe that there is future punishment for evildoers, for the wicked
And this is what allows Christians to forgive.
I’m able to forgive people because I know God is going to judge them in the future.
But
But think about some of the most evil people in our world.
Think about people who harm children.
I mean, w why do I believe in hell?
Because there are people who will abuse, violate, and hurt kids.
And I don’t I wouldn’t mind if God would roast their flesh for all eternity, because I don’t know what it is about my visceral response to people who harm children.
Cool man.
Okay, so okay, I’m getting a little bit off the rails, but let’s get back to Rutledge.
And again, when Rutledge is talking about hell, she’s not talking about that place of
judgment and punishment.
When she talks about hell, she’s just simply talking about where people go when they die.
So in this chapter, she talks about the biblical words, which I mentioned in the very opening of this podcast.
The Hebrew word Sheol, which is similar to the Greek word Hades, and she distinguishes that from the Greek word Gehenna.
Which again speaks of the Valley of Hinnem, the garbage dump where they would burn trash, and how that very literal place was used as a metaphor for future punishment.
So Jesus’ victory over the powers of death and sin are also a victory over the power of hell.
Hades, Sheol.
Jesus, as we see in 1 Peter, descends into Hades, or Sheol, or Hell.
And there Jesus liberates those who have been held captive.
Now, the last subject that’s in this chapter on the descent of hell
That I really want to focus on is Rutledge’s discussion of the nature of evil
Over the years, as a pastor, as a theologian, as a writer, I have worked to understand
How God can be good, and I believe that God is good, and yet God allow evil
Because I acknowledge that evil exists in the world.
And so I found Rutledge’s discussion of evil helpful
She writes, evil cannot be explained, but can only be denounced and resisted.
wherever it appears.
And this follows a biblical trajectory because the Bible never gives us the origin story of evil.
When we see the snake slithering into God’s good creation in Genesis 3, the snake is already evil.
We don’t know where evil comes from.
We cannot simply answer the question.
How can God be good and yet allow evil?
Because Scripture doesn’t give us a true answer.
But
Through philosophical inquiry, let’s call it that, we can understand that evil doesn’t have substance
in and of itself.
We can’t explain what evil is, because in a sense
Evil doesn’t have substance or properties of its own.
We recognize evil when it’s there, and so we can denounce it and resist it.
But to use a philosophical term, evil doesn’t have ontological existence.
Rather, evil is just a twisting or a negation of something that is good
The Latin phrase that has been used in the history of the church is privatio bonae, that is a privation of the good.
So evil is not a thing.
Evil is not a substance.
Evil is the absence of good or the privation of good.
Just like darkness doesn’t really exist.
Darkness is the absence or the privation of light.
Or think about a hole in the ground
What is a hole?
Well, we know what a hole is, but a hole doesn’t have substance.
Now if I go out and and dig a hole in my front yard to to bury a pole to hang a mailbox or something.
I first have to call before you dig.
You know about that.
At least here in the United States.
You gotta call because the people have to come out and check for underground lines.
But if I dig a hole,
That hole is something, but it doesn’t have any substance.
A hole is the absence of dirt.
So imagine a hole at the 40-yard line on a football field
Now, if players are not aware of that hole, it could trip them up and possibly harm them.
But can you weigh that hole?
No, there’s no weight to it because there’s no substance.
A hole is the absence or the privation of dirt.
And so many, many early church fathers would talk about evil having no substance, just like a hole in the ground, that it’s the privation of the good
And in this chapter, Rutledge has a quote from Gregory of Nyssa, one of the great early church fathers, one of the Eastern Greek fathers.
And um let me just sum up this quote from Gregory of Nisa about the privation of the good because his logic is solid.
So Gregory of Nisa, and again, he’s just a representative of many, many other church fathers, uh including Western Latin fathers like Augustine, and then later on Aquinas, my hero.
They all build on the same idea that evil doesn’t have true existence, that it’s a privation.
But here’s her quote to sum up, and and I’m not quoting Gregory of Nisa, I’m just summing up his argument.
So
Gregory of Nyssa says first, God is the creator of all things, and God is responsible for what God has created
Evil is non being, without substance it’s like a hole in the ground, and is not created by God, therefore God is not responsible for evil.
So I find that helpful in wrestling with the question: how can God be good and yet allow evil into the world?
Because evil, God’s not responsible for evil because it’s not something that He is created.
Evil is always the absence of good.
And as we put these themes together, Christus Victor and the Jesus dissenting into death.
What we see is the great theme of liberation.
Because Jesus’ descent into the dead wasn’t to suffer in Gehenna
It was to liberate those in Hades.
And so Jesus in his death has conquered sin.
Death, the grave, hell, the devil, and all of the works of the devil, which would include evil.
And in that liberation, we find our liberation.
Well, that’s going to be it for this episode.
If you have made it to the end of this episode,
Congratulations, what a theological journey we have been on.
And I hope this helps you
during your Linton journey as you reflect on the death of Jesus.
And I hope for you that in your imagination the death of Jesus becomes bigger and more precious.
Because not only does Jesus’ death
Take away our sin.
Not only does it remove guilt and shame and cleanse us from our sin, but the death of Jesus liberates us.
So we can be all that God has called us to be.
Thank you for joining me for this episode.
That’s all I have for you.
Go in peace and be kind.
This transcript was generated with AI and may contain errors.