Show Notes
In this milestone 50th episode of Peaceable and Kind, host Derek Vreeland welcomes his longtime friend, Pastor Santosh Ninan of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. Together, they reflect on decades of friendship, shared spiritual formation, and the quiet influence of Eugene Peterson on their pastoral callings.
Santosh shares his journey from India to Canada, his calling to ministry at age 17, and the role reading plays in his life—highlighting how habits of daily reading, immersion in literature and theology, and staying rooted in the Sermon on the Mount have shaped him as a leader and disciple.
As the conversation turns toward peacemaking in an era of political and cultural polarization, Derek and Santosh unpack why understanding others’ stories is a key to transcending outrage culture and reclaiming Christlike kindness. They explore practical ways for Christians to embody peace and resist echo chambers, while holding fast to kingdom values that rise above nationalism and partisanship.
Whether you’re a pastor, teacher, or a curious follower of Jesus, this episode offers wisdom for leading, listening, and living peaceably in a noisy world.
Key Takeaways
Eugene Peterson teaches us how to lead with integrity, not ego.
Daily reading builds spiritual depth and helps Christians grow in wisdom.
The Sermon on the Mount is a practical guide for living out the way of Jesus.
Real peace starts by listening to people outside your echo chamber.
Christians are called to reject outrage and live for the kingdom.
Spiritual formation means facing hard truths while staying grounded in Scripture.
Books mentioned in this podcast:
A Long Obedience in the Same Direction by Eugene Peterson
Under the Unpredictable Plant by Eugene Peterson
Working the Angles by Eugene Peterson
Answering God by Eugene Peterson
A Burning in My Bones by Winn Collier
Jesus Changes Everything by Stanley Hauerwas
The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory by Tim Alberta
Preorder Derek’s new book, Incarnation: 8 Lessons on How God Meets Us here: https://amzn.to/42jSZAs
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Get to know the host: https://derekvreeland.com
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Transcript
Narrator: Welcome to Peaceable and Kind, the podcast where we explore the transformation. Of living out Jesus’ call to peace and kindness in our everyday lives. Each week your host, Derek Vreeland, will delve into the stories, scriptures, and practical steps that help us embody these essential Christian virtues.
Derek Vreeland: Welcome back to Peaceable and Kind. I am your host, Derek Vreeland, and today is a special day because we are releasing Episode 50. That’s right. We are fifty episodes into this podcast thing. And we have no plans to throttle back. And so if you are one of our day one subscribers, thank you for sticking around. And we have had thousands and thousands of downloads. And if you were here from the beginning, I appreciate that you’re still around. And if you are new to Peaceable and Kind, I would love to have you subscribe. Wherever you are listening to this podcast, and if you’d like to leave a rating and review, I’d appreciate that, especially the five-star reviews. Someone left me a one-star review. But well, it was a rating. It wasn’t an actual review. So I don’t know why they gave me one star. I wish I knew. It shouldn’t bother me, but it does just a little bit. So If you’re enjoying the kind of Christian content we’re producing here at Peaceable and Kind, uh leave a review and let us know. So here we are, episode 50. And indeed, I I don’t have any plans of stopping. I want to continue. uh to produce weekly podcasts that are sowing seeds of peace and kindness Because you know, the internet can be a scary world, and the social media platforms out there tend to want to magnify angry voices, the provocative, divisive kind of voices, they get stuck in our algorithms. And so I am out here just trying to sow seeds of peace and kindness And so I’m glad that you are with us, and I’m glad you’ve joined me for this episode, episode 50, because I’ve been working towards this and I wanted to have a conversation with a friend. And uh in the past, you can go back to previous episodes. I’ve interviewed many um authors and other friends that I have had in the past and ongoing friendships. But I wanted one special for episode fifty, and so I’ve invited Santosh Ninen to join us. Santosh is the lead teaching pastor at Epinezer Baptist Church in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. He holds degrees from Ambrose University. Regent College in Vancouver and a doctorate from Alliance Theological Seminary. He has pastored in both the U. S. and Canada. He and his wife Felicia have three children: Adam, Sophia, and James. He is the author of the children’s book, David’s Valuable Lesson: Insight from an Unlikely Source And I’m happy to call him my friend Santosh. Welcome to Peaceable and Kind. Wow, this is awesome, Derek.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: I’ve been pumped ever since you invited me to be able to join you.
Derek Vreeland: We were just talking that we have only been together in like real time, real space twice. And I think we’ve known each other for almost 20 years. That’s crazy.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah. You know, I was thinking even the way we met was interesting. It was through my cousin from Georgia. You were pastoring her church. And s I had a blog, and you had a blog, and she was like, Oh, these guys I think are gonna connect and that was it. Like she just I don’t know, I called you, you called me, but This is like before even Zoom and stuff. We were probably just talking on the phone. And we yeah, we did. We just connected. Like it’s it’s kind of a gift from the Lord when you connect very quickly with someone. Uh and yeah, we’ve only met twice. But in beautiful places though, right? Like in Colorado and with other great guests like Eugene Peterson and Islaw Wolf so
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, the the conference that we were at um in well just outside of Rocky Mountain National Park. with Eugene Peterson, man, that was such a memorable time in my life. I mean, that’s like a standout. And that was 2008, I think. 2005.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Oh yeah.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: It’s back there. Out of that thing, there’s so few videos on there. And one of the coolest ones is there’s a video I think of Like the back of me and my dad while either you or Lee Cummings is in a view of UG I’m like oh wow I’m actually in the shot
Derek Vreeland: Oh yeah, so good. So good. Well thank you for uh joining me this for this episode. I’d love uh for my podcast listeners to get to know you a little bit. Um, so give us just a kind of overview of your spiritual journey, sort of where it started, talk a little bit about where you were born, where you grew up, uh influences along the way in your spiritual journey.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Tell us a little bit of your story.
Derek Vreeland: Sure.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Well, the listeners can probably ascertain from my name that I uh come from another part of the world, not North America. I was born in uh Valur Tamil Nadu, India. My family immigrated to Canada when I was three years old in order for my father to study at Regent College, a seminary in Vancouver. And uh from there uh in his career, he wasn’t a pastor, he did something else, but his career kind of unfolded in Canada. He got opportunities to work here And so we lived in a couple of different places and then settled in of all places, Saskata, Saskatchewan, where I grew up. And so I was born into a Christian home. My parents uh both uh were from Christian backgrounds. Some folks may not know that the southern part of India was evangelized by Apostle Thomas. So in that part of the world there’s been a 2,000 year history of Christianity. And so I I can trace my lineage to that. Both my parents, their faith really came alive through Innovarsity Christian Fellowship when they were both in college And uh both still have very vibrant faith, walking with the Lord. My father served on various elder boards. So I grew up in a Christian home came to faith as a child and was baptized as a teenager, went through kind of almost a you could write the script of a falling away at sixteen, coming back at seventeen And then uh when I’m seventeen feeling a very, very distinct call into the ministry, which was sort of out of the ordinary. Most of my relatives were professionals, my father’s a professional. So really felt as a distinct college ward and um followed him into that, followed theological education, ended up working at a couple churches and now I’m pastoring a For Canada, I would say it’s a large-sized church. We’re about eleven hundred and I’m uh a lead pastor here with about fifteen staff and uh Excited, been here only a year and a half, so still sort of getting settled in. So exciting to you happen here.
Derek Vreeland: And so you did seminary work at uh Regent there in Vancouver. I didn’t know your dad went there um as well, so interesting.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah, it w it was kind of cool and one of the few second generation Regent grads and we’ve always had a pretty strong connection there with that institution.
Derek Vreeland: And so when your uh cousin, Anita, who was a member of the church I was pastoring in Georgia, uh, when she introduced us She had said, Oh, you have to you have to connect with my cousin Santosh. You guys are identical. You’re you’re saying similar things. You’re You’re listening to the same kind of music, you’re reading the same kind of books, but I d I do remember early on when we connected, uh it was um in part around the influence of Eugene Peterson. in our lives and you had Peterson as a professor.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah, I had uh he wrote a book called Leap Over a Wall and he taught which was about David. And so he taught a class on on that. Like I I guess a lot of that class ended up in the book. So he got a class on David and I took that class. And uh it would the funny thing about it is There might be like twenty people registered for the class, but like sixty people would show up who hadn’t paid. And so the TA would always have to make this announcement, okay, so there’s like three times too many people in here Eugene was pretty gracious glad people stay.
Derek Vreeland: So so y you had Eugene as a as a professor, of course, you’ve read many of his books. How has how has Eugene influenced you as a pastor? Because for me, when I think of like the image of a pastor that I aspire to, I think about Eugene Peterson. So how has he infl influenced you as a pastor?
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah, y you know, you were kind enough to send me some of these questions ahead of time so I had some time to think. And I realized I actually When I was an undergrad, a Bible school student, a law of beings in the same direction was actually assigned to us. So that was my first introduction. It surprisingly it I it didn’t make much of an impact because I did I forgot that we were assigned that. And then it was actually in the mid 90s when an older sort of pastor, mentor, friend of mine uh told me to read um under the unpredictable plant, which I just thought was a crazy name for a book. Like but I got a hold of it And I would say that is one of the most, outside of the Bible, has been one of the most formative books. I think I’ve read it five or six times Almost any time I start a new ministry assignment, I pick up that book and I actually dip into it quite regularly throughout the year. So that was the start. By my introduction to Eugene. And I just found he was just speaking a language I could understand. I mean, you and I have been really formed by North American evangelicalism and North American evangelicalism has really been formed by a lot of business practices, a lot of marketing, a lot of consumerism. And Yuji was just like this fresh vo almost like a prophet, you know, like like like howling in the wilderness, calling us to to our our true vocation. And he’s just, even to this day, I I so in our church we have three services and I always uh retreat into my office in between when I’m preaching just to kind of recover. And I always will just pick up a Eugene book. I’ll just have a Eugene book actually just sitting here. And I’ll just start thumbing through it. And it’s just like it’s just like sitting with a friend. Like he’s just Yeah. So very, very formative for me. He’s taught me how to be continues to teach me how to be a pastor. Yeah. I would say that book Under the Unpredictable Plant has kept me in the ministry at times when it’s been tough.
Derek Vreeland: So So good.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: I would say only Tim Keller or John Stott have been maybe as formative, but Eugene might would really be up there for sure.
Derek Vreeland: For me, it was reading the introduction to working the angles, um, where he talks about the shopkeeper. And um I was at a large megachurch conference and I was just buying into the sort of church growth. Be a big shot pastor, figure out how to get lots of people in your church, that whole thing, the kind of consumer-driven um evangelicalism. But I was reading, that was my first Peterson book. I mean, I had a copy of the message, I think New Testament. So I knew a little bit about Eugene Peterson. That was the first book. And just the introduction. And uh Eugene Peterson put a little little dagger in my consumeristic art. It was great.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah, he he told an interesting story. I don’t know if you heard it when or whether he told it when we were together, but He said he had written a book and he had given to a friend, and his friend said, it’s good, but it’s not angry enough. So he went up into his study. and actually ra wrote that introduction in One City and just sat down and wrote it. And it’s it’s awesome. I agree with you. I still have my first One of the first copies of the message ever published, I was working at a Christian bookstore when it came out. So it’s the white big paperback New Testament. And uh Eugene signed it when we were with him.
Derek Vreeland: That’s awesome. So of all of Peterson’s books, I don’t know how many he wrote, 50 plus probably. What would you recommend? Not to pastors, but just to Just to to regular Christian folks, one Eugene Peterson must read book, what would it be?
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Well, I’m going to break the rule here and I wrote top more than one because I just thought that was unfair. I would say I would say if there’s one book, it would be Long Obedience, surprisingly enough, even though that didn’t impact me at the time. But going back and looking at it, it’s just It’s it’s timeless. Like it still speaks and it’s basically about discipleship. He’s working through the Psalms of Ascent and just has these very, very perceptive observations of contemporary life and spirituality. So I would say lawn obedience in the same direction. I’d say for pastors, unpredictable plant It’s very, very helpful. So prayer, he has a book called Answering God about using the Psalms, which is very helpful. And then I think if someone is Wants to know Eugene, like his biography, The Pastor, but even more than that, burning in my is it burning in my bones or burning in the bones
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, yeah, a burning in my bones.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah, I would say that one’s almost better. It was really, really well done. So he asked for one, I gave four, but I’d say long obedience. Long obedience would be the number one.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, yeah, and I would agree. I would agree with that. Um, speaking of reading, um, you usually post on social media at the end of the year how many books you’ve read, and do you just read way faster than I do. You read a lot more than I do. Uh talk to me a little bit about your reading habits since we’re talking about books. What um how do you read so much?
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah, this this uh I reflected on this and I realized like we have different God uses different ways to form us and I realized as I reflected on this question God uses books in my life to form me. And so reading is more than just a habit. Now it’s almost like oxygen. Like I just have to. So I I my practice is I read for twenty to thirty minutes every morning. And I usually have three books on the go. I’ll have a book on spiritual formation or theology or the Christian life. Or I’ll have a book on leadership and then as you and I as Eugene fans we read novels and poetry. So I try to throw that in there too. And and then in the evenings I I’m trying to wean myself off Netflix, and so I try to read a little bit in the evening as well. And so that’s about it, is how I read.
Derek Vreeland: I have to pause this episode for just a moment to tell you that I have written a new book. Incarnation: Eight Lessons on How God Meets Us. This eight-week Bible study uses the uniqueness of the message translation to Explore God’s presence with us. Link to pre-order is in the show notes I love it. No, it’s yeah, books have been such a important part of my life in my own formation and um as a as a writer as well. Reading influences the things I write. So yeah, it’s good to hear because habits are important.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah, and I I think the other thing that I was thinking about is is for any of your pastors or leaders is is learning to flex with your so In my current role, I’m kind of in I’m kind of look I’m re I’m leading a large organization and I’m most pastors are good on preaching in pastoral care and we’re very weak on leadership just because we don’t have much experience or we don’t get it in seminary. And so for this year I’m actually just really really leaning into into leadership and management books in my reading. And uh and also I’m I’m reading a little bit more on the gifts of the Holy Spirit due to some things that have happened in our church. And so These are things that I normally especially the leadership books wouldn’t come naturally to me, but I just feel I’d need to loom into it. So It’s awesome.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah. No, I think the flexibility is good. Reading broadly is good, um, different topics, but then yeah, reading fiction and different kinds of books, yeah, really important.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: And I think like I I teach a a preaching and communication class and I and I I’d actually put that in the in the curriculum. kind of encourage the the students to always be reading literature and poetry. And the reason for that, for that might seem strange to some people, but the reason is is for preachers, language is our currency and we have to uh we we just have to have broad knowledge and broad use of language, but also literature, especially very good literature, opens up the imagination. in uh in ways that that just straight theology can’t. Right. Like there’s this poet named Malcolm Gite that you’re probably familiar with. Oh yeah. He’s actually a an actual hobbit, if you look at him. He’s an amazing guy. But but I find like his work really opens me up to the spirit in ways that just straight systematic theology does not. And I think that’s a beautiful thing that that the spirit uses just the beauty of language and poetry.
Derek Vreeland: So important. I just subscribed to uh Malcolm Geit’s YouTube. And he is a hobbit.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Ski’s on real. Yeah, it’s cool.
Derek Vreeland: I love it. I love it. Well listen, um let’s talk a little bit about peace and peacemaking because of some very um regrettable and unfortunate decisions by the current administration in the executive branch of the American government, the hostility between Canadians and Americans is um ratcheted up a little bit. And it’s sad to me um that we’re in this place. I would have never imagined it. So I’m just curious first on sort of a Canadian perspective on what’s happening. And then we can talk a little bit about the peacemaking aspect.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah. Yeah, I I agree with you. I think, you know, a year or two ago I wouldn’t even imagine we’d be in this place of of hostility and anger. Um, from my perspective, so so so your read listeners know I lived in the States, right? Years I had a green card. I was I was there for the twenty sixteen and twenty twenty elections. I was pastoring during the twenty sixteen elections, which was very interesting. Yeah, as a Canadian, I I kind of put it this way, it feels like You’re walking along with your good friend and then he turns and punches you in the nose. And you and you know with no no warning or whatever. You’re just like, what the heck just happened? And you’re trying to trying to piece together what happened. And so And I I would say for Canadians, it’s not a hostility per se against Americans, but against an American. singular. So it’s more that. I mean, as I talk to my Canadian friends, there’s no anger at Americans. We love Americans. I love America. It’s the most innovative energetic, incredible nation on earth. I mean obviously it’s got its issues that we can talk about, but it’s a giving nation. There’s just so much positive about America. And so it’s it’s really, to be honest, heartbreaking that this uh your current administration is making these moves that is isolating it from the world. And and I’ll be honest, could potentially denigrate your role, your role on the global stage. The American dollar might stop being the currency, uh the standard. measuring tool for for economics. Trade is gonna be disrupted. And so for Canadians it’s just sad. Like we’re just kinda sad. Yeah, we’re angry. I know a lot of Canadians are selling off their American Florida homes or canceling vacations. I just spoke to a a doctor in my church who was supposed to go to Orlando next week and they’ve canceled it. And it’s just I mean that’s really sad. So from the Canadian side, we’re sad. I guess I’m not as angry maybe as some other folks, but it’s just sort of a sadness and confusion, I would say, from our perspective.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, and I I I echo that. Yeah, I I don’t feel the ho the hostility doesn’t make me angry. It it’s grievous. It just it makes me sad and I I certainly do not represent all Americans. But for this American, I love all my Canadian friends and I wish we weren’t in this situation, but You know, so our podcast here is about creating roads towards peace and peacemaking. We’ve been talking about books. I recently finished up Stanley Hauerwass’s What is probably how Ross’s final book, Jesus Changes Everything? And it’s actually been edited by Charles Moore, and it’s um kind of like a primer of uh some of the main themes from Howard Wass. Not everything, but a lot of his main themes. And I just finished up Jesus Changes Everything. And uh Howard Wass makes this statement And maybe it can lead us into having conversations about peacemaking. But Howard Wass writes, it seems that peace is not the absence of conflict Rather, peacemaking is the quality of life and the practices engendered by a community that knows it lives as a forgiven people. And that’s pretty classic, Howard Wasp, because it’s rooting things in Christian community. So I’m wondering what are some of these practices, some of these habits that Canadian and American Christians can put into practice to both live and and spread peaceableness. What do you think?
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah, this is what a what a fantastic question, Greg. This is very provocative as as I was kind of thinking about it. A couple of thoughts come to mind. One is Returning to the Sermon on the Mount. So, I mean, we believe all of Scripture is inspired and inerrant. But the Sermon on the Mount is sort of this very concise summary of what the Christian life should be. You know what I mean? And sort of immersing yourself in those teachings, you know, uh rooting yourself in that reality. I think is very helpful. If if if people made that a practice of daily reading it, maybe making a project or immersing themselves through deep study into it. I think that can be very formative. I think Spiritual formation, our challenge is there’s too many voices right now, right? Like with social media, with podcasts, sorry, but just with Just this with a lot of noise, you know, to be able to pull back and hear the voice of Jesus through the Sermon on the Mount. I think. So so for me, I was thinking that’s one practice that is helpful. I think a second practice, and this is not as as easy as that one, is is conversation with the other, I guess I would call it. Is how do you speak so so let me use an example. So in America you there’s this very challenging issue of the border, of illegal immigrants, you know, which are actually most Canadians wouldn’t know that those numbers are in the millions of of the number of illegals in America The numbers are in the tens of thousands of people coming over the border. And so there’s this guy think a tendency to be a little bit contemptuous, angry, blah, blah, blah. But what would it take for like a white middle class suburban conservative person to sit across the table from someone from Guatemala? It’s been here three, four years, just listening to their story. I mean, that’s it’s not a practical thing to do. I don’t even know how you do it, but it just came to mind of being able to listen to the stories of the other. Otherwise we’re just being formed in these stupid echo chambers where we’re just watching You know, if you’re on the right, you’re watching Fox, and you’re on the left, you’re on watching MSNPC, and you’re just stuck in this thing that’s just reinforcing What could possibly be your negative stereotypes? And so how do you get around out of that, you know? Um for me here up in Canada our challenges, social challenges lie around our relationship with our indigenous brothers and sisters and so listening to their stories, you know, my church is fairly conservative not completely white now, more more multicultural, but still pretty pretty removed from the realities of of those folks. And and so, you know, an example is we’ve had a number of We’ve had record overdoses, fentanyl overdoses in our city in the last two, three weeks. And my church is in this in the burbs and we are just so uh insulated from that reality. And I I’m racking my brain is how do I bridge this gap, you know, between these two groups. So I so going back to your original question, so immersion in the Sermon on the Mount, you know As I study the Sermon on the Mount, that admonition to love your enemies I’ve taken as being the highest form of discipleship is if you can get to the point where you’re loving and serving your enemies you are then being most Christlike. And I just don’t see that happening right now among Christians. And I think one of the saddest things I see is just the lack of kindness, of just basic kindness to other people. Like if you if you’re looking at X online, it’s just the contempt and the anger from Christian voices is just stunning, you know? It’s heartbreaking So an understanding of loving and concern for our enemies, and then an understanding that the kingdom of God transcends national and ethnic boundaries, I find this more much more in America than in Canada. Is and I mean I think there’s been probably fifty books written in the last little while. The most famous is that one, is it The Power and the Glory by Tim Alberta? Right the is the probably the best one written, but there’s been scores written kind of pointing this out. And that’s gonna I think take a radical kingdom uh work of the spirit because the the patriotism it’s so fused with the worldview of of many evangelicals in America. There’s a guy named uh Bob Eckblad. I don’t know if you’re familiar with him. He’s friends with with Brad Jerzak. He’s out in Washington State. But Brad said, or sorry, um, yeah, Bob said something very provocative. He said, he believes that there is a spiritual stronghold with American patriotism. And he goes so far as to say, even uh saluting the flag reinforces that stronghold. And I I don’t know if I go with him that far, but when he used the word stronghold, that really resonated with yeah, that I think he’s on to something.
Derek Vreeland: I think patriotism, you know, to feel proud of the place that you’re from is is natural and good. I think it lends itself to responsible citizenship. Um but when patriotism gets overlaid with religious devotion And there are liturgies and liturgical gestures that get kind of wrapped up in there. So I think Christians have to have to be careful. But um but yes, I think if we can turn up the volume on the sermon on the mount and not just learn it but put it into practice, I mean I I totally agree because it’s so in vogue to live in perpetual outrage. whatever side you’re on of whatever issue. And I think focusing on the Sermon on the Mount can lead into some deep formation. that prevents us from just adding more fuel to the outrage fire. And certainly loving our enemies, I think, is is is a part of resisting. that outrage, that calling out, that shaming thing.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah, and I as we as you were talking, just a thought popped into my mind that One thing I’ve noticed is I hope I don’t get in trouble for this, but but evangelicals that have come down pretty hard on on issues of sexuality or gender identity, which, you know, I as a conservative I probably agree with them But that’s become sort of the litmus test. And the and the most kind of egregious example of this is I saw online this fairly well-known charismatic pastor. kind of praising Putin because he’s T L G B T. He goes, yeah, there’s some problems, but at least he this, this, this, and this. And I’m just like, are you kidding me? Like Anyway.
Derek Vreeland: Well, I I think yeah, no, there’s there’s all sorts of litmus tests. for which side are you on in all of these culture wars? And I just hear Jesus calling us out come out from among them and be separate. And and I always tell people like, don’t invite me to join your side of the culture war because I beat my soared into a plow share years ago. Like I’m just not cause I really hear the gospel of the kingdom calling us higher to transcend uh the culture wars and and so I think that’s a part of making peace is saying there’s a third way
Pastor Santosh Ninan: And I think partly there should be a warning given here is if you start walking in the path of Jesus, if you start walking in the in the path of kindness and grace and love. And you start walking out of maybe how you were formed, you know, in your church as an American or whatever. Like you you gotta have you gotta um be bulletproof. Because you look at guys like David French and uh who’s a guy I create Russell Moore. Right. These guys who, you know, Phil Vischer. Like the amount of hatred those guys get, I c I’m I’m glad I’m not have a big platform because I’d probably be crying all the time. I’d be in the fetal position under my bed, you know, because It’s just so cruel the the hits those guys get, you know. Uh kudos to them. I I love them and I and I’m glad they’re out there. It’s so tough Off gig for sure.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah. The other thing I love so much about what you said in terms of peacemaking is learning the stories of other people. I’ve I’ve seen that in my own congregation. um between white people and black people in my church as they’ve heard their stories. Because I think what the echo chamber you mentioned, it it just makes everything an issue. or an idea, but stories kind of put flesh on the issue, right? It’s not just ideas and issues, these are these are people and these are lives. And I think it is true that a true enemy is someone who has a story you haven’t heard yet. And I think that coming to a table n not to judge one another, but simply to listen and to try to understand. If we can I think if we can figure out a way of understanding without agreeing, I think there’s a little skill there. If we can learn that, that goes a long way in the area of peacemaking.
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah, a couple comments on that. So the the conversation with the other is so important. Like when I when I was living in the States, so I was in central New York, uh at a conservative white congregation for the most part. And as I lived there Not many African Americans in my church. But as I lived there, I realized my white friends, I wouldn’t say they were racist, but they had no black friends and they had even less of an understanding of the African American experience in America. And these were good they were my friends. Like I didn’t Again, I didn’t see them as racists, but there’s just this huge gap between these two worlds. And then I had a friend uh in New York named Lisa Christian who started um this program called Conversations That Matter where she just simply brought white and black people together. For a full day, we’d have a barbecue lunch and we would just share our perspectives. And It was it was very f transformative, I believe, more for the whites than maybe the blacks, but you know, I I just recall one young African American guy from the Bronx just talking about his relationship with the police and what his parents have taught him and that’s just kind of blowing the minds of my white friends who are like, what? Is that real? So and then Yeah, so I would say that is those conversations in person across the table from one another is very, very important
Derek Vreeland: So important. So important. Well, listen, Santosh, we are out of time, but thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. Hey, where can people find you online if they want to follow you online?
Pastor Santosh Ninan: Yeah, I don’t have a website. I would say I’m on Facebook, I’m on Instagram. You can find me on there. Those are probably the two best places to to fly at Santosh9.
Derek Vreeland: All right. Well, find Santosh Nynan online and follow him. All right, Santosh, thank you for joining me for episode 50 of Peaceable and Kind. It’s been great. Oh, awesome. Awesome. Thanks, buddy. And that’s all we have for today. Thank you for joining us for this episode. Go in peace and be kind.
This transcript was generated with AI and may contain errors.