Show Notes
In this conversation, Pastor and Author Derwin Gray and Derek Vreeland discuss football and conversations about race in Bible study and church life. They emphasize that the gospel is not just about individual salvation, but also about creating a diverse and unified family in Christ. They challenge the idea of colorblindness because it diminishes the beauty and diversity of God’s creation. They also address the issue of systemic injustice and the need for open conversations and understanding. This conversation encourages Christians to be unoffendable and to embrace our unity within diversity.
Books mentioned in this episode:
How to Heal Our Racial Divide by Derwin Gray
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Transcript
Narrator: Welcome to Peaceable and Kind, the podcast where we explore the transformation. Each week your host, Derek Vreeland, will delve into the stories, scriptures, and practical steps that help us embody these essential Christian virtues.
Derek Vreeland: Welcome back to another episode of Peaceable and Kind. I am your host, Derek Vreeland, and I am glad you have joined me for another episode and if you haven’t already go ahead and hit subscribe and if you can leave us a rating or review Wherever you’re listening to this podcast, that will help. This is going to be a great conversation today. We have a guest with us, our guest. Today on Peaceable and Kind is Derwin Gray. Derwin is the lead pastor of Transformation Church in Indian Land, South Carolina, a church he co-founded. With his wife Vicky. Transformation Church is an influential, multi-ethnic, multi-generational, multi-campus, mission-shaped church And Durin was a defensive back for the BYU Cougars in the late 80s and 90s, totaling 126 solo tackles. 13 interceptions, 16 pass breakups before going on to a six-year career in the NFL, five years with the Indianapolis Colts, and one year with the Panthers. Derwind earned a doctor of ministry degree in New Testament context from Northern Seminary, and he is the author. Of several books, including Limitless Life, The Good Life, Building a Multi-Ethnic Church, God, Do You Hear Me, How to Heal a Racial Divide And the forthcoming book, Lit Up with Love, that’s coming out next year. He has two adult children. He has some killer hip-hop dance moves. For real, go to his Instagram, and I’m happy to call him my friend, Dr. Derwin Gray. Welcome to Peaceable and Kind. Well, thank you very much, Derek.
Derwin Gray: That was a quite an introduction. And so your podcast, I love the name. peaceable and kind, but I’m gonna choose violence in this particular moment and I’m gonna share with your listeners a little insight into our friendship. So there’s this big game called the Super Bowl. And Derek’s favorite team has been in the Super Bowl quite often, the Kansas City Chiefs. I’m sure he’s allowed you to know that. And it and at halftime the cheeps were getting smoked. And uh I said to Derek Man, it’s gonna be okay. And he was just really down in the dump because it’s a long game. Any anyway, Pat Mahomes, Kelsey, the defense, they do their thing, Andy Reed, and the Chiefs win So the next thing I know on what used to be called Twitter, now known as X, I see Derek going, there was never a doubt in my mind that they were gonna win. And so I commented, yeah, there was a doubt in your mind. I just talked to you at halftime, man. I had to pick you up off the ground and cry.
Derek Vreeland: Hey, Derwin, you You you’ve been a great friend. You have called me uh in Super Bowls, AFC championship games, and uh but I’ll still stand by my uh my my tweet. Uh there was never a doubt But man, I got low. I was walking through the valley of the shadow of death.
Derwin Gray: But the Lord led you to green pastures and quiet waters and noon years
Derek Vreeland: Even in the midst of your enemies, you know that’s true. Hey, I’m so glad that you’ve joined us for uh this episode. I do want to talk to you about some of the themes uh from your book, How to Heal a Racial Divide. A book that I have read, I’ve led groups through, I have recommended. But but before we jump into themes, in that book, since you brought up my beloved Kansas City Chiefs, do you think the Chiefs can three peat this year? I mean, never been done in NFL history. Uh can do you think they can do it Uh I mean, why not?
Derwin Gray: I mean, as long as you got Andy Reid, you got Patrick Mahomes, you got Travis Kelsey, uh, I mean, I would I would be foolish to uh say that they can’t. I mean, it it’s it’s simply remarkable what they’ve been able to accomplish. And it’s like they lose parts and then they get better players. So uh Andy Reed is a generational coach. Uh I actually played against Andy Reed when he was the offensive coordinator for the Philadelphia Eagles. And Andy Reed is also a BYU guy, and I’m a BYU guy. My head coach Lavelle Edwards actually coached Andy Reed, and Andy Reed was on Lavelle Edwards staff. So I actually enjoy Andy Reed flourishing and doing well because he’s a BYU guy But yeah, I I don’t put anything past what the Chiefs can accomplish. I mean, it’s simply remarkable what they’ve been able to do. The way you stop a great offense is you have to keep them off the field. When you play the Chiefs, you gotta have ball control.
Derek Vreeland: And then you gotta knock the snot out of them when they catch the ball. Yeah. So you heard it here. It is possible. I mean, why not? And I appreciate when you were talking about the Super Bowl when you called me and I do appreciate that phone call at halftime. But it was it was Pat Mahomes and it was Andy Reid But it was that defense. And I that’s why I’m confident again this year our offense has only gotten better and uh the defense will still be strong. So I’m I’m hopeful. I’m hopeful.
Derwin Gray: Yeah, well, people will often ask me who’s my favorite NFL team and I’ll say the team that writes me a paycheck. And so since the Colts nor the Panthers write me a paycheck, Um, I simply root because I love the game and I don’t have a favorite team. I just enjoy the game.
Derek Vreeland: Very good. Well, let’s talk a little bit about church life. uh you’ve been a pastor now a number of years. How do you respond when people come up and say to you Pastor Derwin, why do you talk about race so much? Why don’t you just preach the gospel?
Derwin Gray: Yeah, so over the years what I’ve learned to do now is kind of be tongue in cheek, and I’ll say something like this. You know what? You’re right. So this is what I’m gonna start to do. I’m no longer gonna teach that the Israelites were slaves in Egypt, and I’m no longer gonna teach that the Israelites had to make it through the Canaanites, Hittites, Jezebites, Frizobites. I’m no longer gonna teach that the Israelites were taken in captivity by the Baptist. Babylonians. I’m not going to teach that there were Samaritans or Romans. I’m not going to teach that at the end of the Bible there’s every nation, tribe, and tongue. And I’m not going to teach that Jesus was a Jew. Well, when you begin to take ethnicity out of the Bible, you don’t have a Bible left. God, i. e. , Yahweh, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, desire to reconcile the human race, which is comprised of different ethnicities An ethnicity deals with language, culture, and shared story. And so there’s different ethnicities, every nation, tribe, and tongue. And so the redemptive blood of Jesus Is poured out not just to forgive sins, but to create a family with different colored skins. And this family is the family that God promised Abraham in Galatians 3:8. Paul writes, and the gospel was preached beforehand to Abraham in this, all the nations would be blessed. Uh, if I could say this rather sternly, we have a very reductionistic, immature view of the gospel if we simply think it’s about Jesus dying on the cross to forgive our sins Christ is so much cosmic in his nature. Individual salvation only exists so God can have a redeemed family. And this is a family of every nation, tribe, and tongue. Where we have oneness in Christ. So if you preach a gospel that does not talk about the family-making nature of grace, then all we’ve done is preach the reductionistic gospel. The gospel you preach creates the trade churches you get. And so one of the reasons why we have segregated churches is because we have preached that Jesus simply just forgave our sins. I’m grateful he forgave my sins, but he also made you and I brothers, Derek. Yes. And so I think as Western individualistic Christians, we’ve turned it into a get out of jail free card instead of understanding the kingdom of God has been launched and it’s open to Jews and Gentiles.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, I like that term reductionistic because there is something very true about God forgiving individual sin, something very true about upon death. Uh we die in Christ, we are absent from the body, we’re present with the Lord in his heaven. But that does that individualistic take on the gospel sounds a whole lot more American than it does New Testament. Because it seems like Paul is very interested in proclaiming a gospel that brings together Jews and Gentiles. That’s a more New Testament gospel.
Derwin Gray: Well yeah. If you just take a cursory lance and reading the New Testament. uh we see that all of Paul’s letters were written to churches that had Jewish people and non-Jewish pee people in them. And they were arguing in victory and fighting. And so Paul’s whole thing is the good news of Jesus is what forms us into the forgiven, redeemed, justified. people of God, for the glory of God, being led by the Spirit of God. And so what I like to say is this, is not only do you get the individual richness of the gospel, but you get a family also. And so when you look at what most of the churches teach and you look at most of the discipleship, it is individualistic. And so when it’s simply about me and my personal relationship with Jesus, Then including your brother and sisters of a different ethnicity or the plight they may be suffering is not a major issue to you. So think about this: even when Jesus prayed the Lord’s Prayer, Our Father. Our Father. There’s so much R. And even Paul, when he uses the term you in his letters, most of them are written in the second person plural pronoun, which means You as in the many. And so we got to get back to the Bible, Derek. Like, like, like, we have to get back to the Bible. This is what I want to encourage everyone to do When you’re reading the Bible, every time you see an ethnicity, circle it, every time you see Jew, circle it, every time you see Gentile, circle it, and you’re going to be shocked. And how many times you have circled your Bible? What does the devil want to do? The devil wants to divide. And ever since Cain and Abel, he’s been dividing, and he divides along what Ethnicity. As a matter of fact, the Apostle Paul’s day, there was a common Jewish prayer that would say, Yahweh, thank you for not making me a Gentile, a woman, or a slave. The Greeks and Romans would say a prayer to their pantheons of gods, thank you for not making me a barbarian, which is anybody that was not Greek or Roman, a woman or a slave. And then here’s the Apostle Paul. All those who’ve been baptized into Christ are clothed with Christ, therefore there’s neither Jew nor Greek, free nor slave, male nor female, for we are all one in Christ And if you belong to Christ, you are children of Abraham. So in the middle of these barriers, ethnicity, gender, and class, there’s the gospel that says we’re one. And that our ethnicity is not obliterated, it’s celebrated. It’s not class warfare, and there’s male-female distinction, but oneness in Christ. And it’s utterly beautiful And it breaks my heart. And you know, just as we’re having this conversation, I feel like we as the church should be so much further ahead. Yeah. Should be so much like this is not what I’m what I’m teaching is not new. Like this is simply common New Testament theology in the gospel.
Derek Vreeland: And I think some of it’s been lost, because yeah, it’s it’s it’s the gospel, it’s New Testament. And when you think about the way Paul draws upon Abraham It goes all the way back into the Old Testament, all the way back to Genesis chapter twelve, when God chose Abram and said, I’ll bless you, and through you there will be a family that becomes a a a nation that becomes a kingdom and and through you and your descendants I will bless all the families of the earth. Yes. So it’s it’s it’s there in Paul. We’ve seen to miss I think we’ve missed it in part because we’ve allowed individualism into our into our churches. That’s a cultural value that’s misshapened what we’re doing in the church. But there’s also been in the 80s and the 90s, it was primarily coming out of Fuller Theological Seminary, the idea of the homogeneous unit principle. that churches grow quickest when they are not multi ethnic, when they are of one ethnicity But that is a myssiological principle that we don’t see in the New Testament. Yeah. I think that’s hurt us.
Derwin Gray: Yeah, you know, just to just to do a little bit of of of history, Donald McGovern was a missionary to India. And India at that time was ruled by class, caste systems. And so what McGovern said is we have to reach people based on their caste, and once they’re redeemed, get them into a church with people of a different caste. Because if not, you’re gonna have racist churches. So Americans took that and that fit right into the segregated United States. And that fit right into People who look alike, think alike, vote alike, same economic status, putting them together, and you don’t have as much discomfort and you can grow faster. But here’s the problem though. It turns into echo chambers of ignorance and racism and injustice. There’s a reason why God wants the other together. Discomfort is how you grow. If I could just pour my heart out. Please do. I have lifted weights since I was 14 years old. To give me NFL, I trained hard. I lived in perpetual discomfort But yet today as American Christians, if you bring up the topic of race, people just snowflake apart. And it’s like, that’s the devil wants you to do that. The devil wants you to run away. So in How to Heal Our Racial Divide, I actually walk through how to have these conversations.
Derek Vreeland: in the context of the gospel of King Jesus. It seems to me that some Christians, particularly white brothers and sisters, get nervous when we want to talk about race or if we want to call out the sin of of racial injustice, they they they just they seem to get a little nervous. That’s why I thought your book was so helpful, because you do show us how we can have those conversations. in the church. I wonder where that nervousness comes from. Because sometimes what I hear is, oh, we’re just being political. Again, why don’t you just preach the gospel? Why are you getting all political? But it’s it it’s it’s It’s it’s not political. It’s it’s if we’re going to be a church that’s set apart and different and holy, we gotta talk about all the sins out there, including the sin of racism.
Derwin Gray: Yeah. Yeah, you know, Pastor, uh, so our church is probably fifty-five to fifty-eight percent white. And so I’m a pastor for everyone. And what I’ve learned that I have to do is I have to pastor more of my conservative and when I say conservative, uh I mean political, right? ‘Cause we’re a very orthodox church. Sure. I have to pastor my more politically conservative leaning members through white guilt and shame. And I will often say to my white brothers and sisters, Half of my family is white. My wife is white. So number one. Number two, you don’t have to be guilty about owning slaves or Native American injustice because You were not alive. Sure. Number three, yes, admit that those injustices helped you. They did, right? There’s nothing wrong with that. So once I lay that foundation, you can feel the pressure release. And then I say, Your identity is not In the United States of America. And so when people of color bring up past critiques of America, it doesn’t mean we don’t love America. It means we don’t want to repeat the same. ugliness of the past. I love my country. As a matter of fact, my fourth grandfather Moses Davis fought for the colored cavalry in Virginia in the Civil War Against the Confederacy. In my blood is patriotism and a love for America. America don’t just belong to my white brothers and sisters, it belongs to all of us who are here. And then thirdly, because our identity is in Christ, we can look back at the past and say, this won’t happen on my watch. Because I am my brother’s keeper. I am my sister’s keeper. I am the embodiment of God’s presence on earth through the Holy Spirit. And what’s interesting, Derek, is a lot of the same tropes that was in the 50s and the 60s is coming back around again because the evangelical church We have never really honestly dealt with this issue. And what I did is I wrote How to Heal Our Racial Divide. to be a roadmap for people in the pews, but a roadmap for pastors. And what people are surprised with is they read the book and go. Wow, I learned so much about the Bible. And specifically, I say, well, I am a New Testament scholar by God’s grace And I do believe that the gospel is the solution because the gospel is more than a trip to heaven when we die. The gospel Is the redemptive reality? Jesus is claiming everything, including people, to create an every nation, tribe, and tongue that is spirit-sealed and filled.
Derek Vreeland: That is justified by his blood, who are called to love one another. I love it. I love it Sometimes I hear um white Christians they’ll say, Well, I I I don’t even I don’t even see color. I don’t even see people in terms of color, but you write In uh how to heal our racial divide, you write colorblind ideology is bad theology It diminishes the glory of God. Yeah. So so break it down for us. What is colorblind ideology and why is it bad?
Derwin Gray: Yeah, so so let me say say this. I think that most people who say I don’t see color say it from a good place. And I guess what they’re saying is, listen, hey, I’m not a racist. And What I want, and I think what the Lord wants is for us not just to be against something, but to be for something
Derek Vreeland: Yes.
Derwin Gray: And so um if I see a Korean b brother or uh uh Indian brother, I don’t I don’t say I don’t see your color What I say is I see a brother or sister made in the image of God from a different culture where the image of God is located. And so we don’t want to be colorblind. We want to be color blessed. We want to thank God for the different Colors and cultures. When we say I don’t see color, we are muting the creative genius Of our glorious and wonderful God. Um, quick story. I was speaking at a mute at a leadership event for teenagers, and it was probably 98, 99% white, and what I just explained, I said to them. Afterwards, I was meeting the students and a young Asian gal, she was Korean, she came up to me and she just started crying. And she said, Thank you for telling me. That image of God is in my people too. Thank you for seeing me. Thank you for For recognizing. And so it’s important for us to go, man, I recognize the image of God in you. So lastly, now this will be a slight rebuke is this, not to you, but for those who say I don’t see colorblind uh or I don’t see c color. Most people who say They don’t see color, have never had the color of their skin be a disadvantage for them or their ancestors.
Derek Vreeland: That’s true. Yeah, that’s that’s yeah, that’s a that’s a needed rebuke. I think when we’ve had folks in our church um white folks in our church question why we’ve had uh book studies. We’ve we’ve done that in the past to talk about racism and how we can see the gospel as an anecdote. uh to that sin. I remember talking to one gentleman, an older gentleman in our church, and he just said, I don’t get it. I don’t I don’t see this problem. I don’t see these problems of racism. And I asked him, I said, Well, well, why don’t you ask your your black friends about this? And I and I asked it innocently, and then as soon as I said it, I realized This guy doesn’t have any black friends. And so he said, Well I don’t I don’t know anyone who is a person of color. And so that’s why we formed a a listening group. So we did a book study. It was a listening group And we had uh people of different races in that group. We were all studying the book together, and it gave the opportunity um for white men to listen to black women share their story. And it was healing um when uh white people can listen to people of color mm and and get a bit of of an insight that a person of color, their perspective of living and we’re here in Northwest Missouri, their perspective of living in Northwest Missouri, which is like 90% white, is different than a person with white skin. and again the goal in seeing the diversity of our ethnicity is not to further divide uh but to recognize the beauty and that diversity. That’s why I love that color, color blessed, not color blind.
Derwin Gray: Yeah, y you know, and and what I would like to add too, Pastor, is uh prejudice works both ways. Sure. And so, you know, there have been black people on in our church that uh we that have left because they didn’t feel like I was pro-black enough Sure. And I said, well, I’m pro-Jesus. That’s all is I want to be pro Jesus. My loyalty is to King Jesus. And so if you’re looking for a black tribal leader, that’s not what I am. What I want to be is a servant of the Most High God to join him in creating this family. That is colorful. And so it works both ways. And let me say this too. And in this conversation, I think it’s really important, regardless of your ethnicity. If you look to get offended, you surely will. True. One of the things that I talk about even in How to Hill a Racial Divide is how do we Learn how to be unoffendable. And the way we can be unoffendable is to live in the justifying blood of Jesus. That if Jesus Christ not only forgives me, not only reconciles me to the Father, but if he declares me to be his very righteousness, because I’m incorporated into him, I’m united into him. then what you say to me on the outside cannot steal my peace on the inside. And I think we have so many people who live in the power of the flesh that every single day they live in offendableness. And so it’s time for us. We can’t have real conversations if we are not in a posture of health. And then secondly, when we talk about systemic injustice and those things, I’ll have some conservative friends who say, well, systemic injustice doesn’t exist. And I’ll say, well, do you believe that college campuses there’s a bias against Christians? Yes. Do you believe there’s a bias against Christians in the media? Yes. Do you believe there’s a bias of Christians uh in Hollywood, yes. Then I’ll say, so you do believe in systemic injustice? Uh no I go, well, everything you just described is a result of systemic inj justice. And also, because we believe in total depravity, we know that if people are depraved, then the systems they run are depraved. And so it’s important for us to understand that as Christians we’re orthodox in our theology, systemic injustice doesn’t mean that white people have not had to work hard. Right. That was one of the conversations I would have with my father-in-law. He had an eighth-grade education. Um he built uh log homes in Montana. I mean we’re great friends and you know he would say, well, you know, son, I I worked hard. And I say, Dad, no one ever said you didn’t work hard. I’m proud of your hard work. I said, but the color of your skin did not have a bearing on your hard work. Whereas for my ancestors, it did. You had access to jobs and education. that we could. You know, so, you know, like college football is getting ready to start now. And it’s like, yeah, hey, college foot football and Missouri’s in the SEC and it’s awesome. And I think about man if you go back 50 years and all these SEC schools with all these black awesome football players would not be allowed into those schools. By the way, Do you know how the SEC and football uh broke the color barrier? No, you gotta tell me. So the great uh Paul Bear Bryant of Alabama knew that he needed black players to get into the SEC and on his team. But he also knew culturally they wouldn’t. They had to have a reward. The people had to have a reward if this was to take place. So what he did is he called his friend John McKay, who was the head coach of the University of Southern California California Trojans in nineteen seventy one it was or so, and they had a big running back and their team had a bunch of black players, and the running back’s name was Sam Bam Cunningham, six three, two hundred and thirty pounds. Well He ran all over the University of Alabama. USC beat the dog snot out of Alabama. And in 1972, guess what Alabama had on their teams? Black players. Of course. And uh I’m just thinking th thinking all these peop people said uh segregation now, segregation forever Their descendants are cheering all these kids who couldn’t get into the school. So what I’m saying is the gospel, the good news of King Jesus Cross takes a sledgehammer of grace and breaks through that demonic nonsense that every person Every person is loved by the king. And when we come into his family, we stand on the same footing.
Derek Vreeland: The blood of Jesus. I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for your time today. I love your love for Jesus and the church and for all people. And for Chiefs fans that might be sweating it out in the middle of a Super Bowl. And uh, hey, where can people find you? I know you got this new book that’s coming out next year. Where can people find you? Yeah, you know, just go to derwinlgray.
Derwin Gray: com. That’s derwinlgray. com gray with an A. And Durwinlgray. com will take you to uh our church’s website at transformation church all my social media handles are at derwin l gray but go to derwinlgray Also, my brand new book, which will be out in February, you can pre-order now. It’s called Lit Up With Love, Becoming Good News People to a Gospel Starved World. If you want to increase your passion for Jesus, If you want to grow as a disciple and if you want to be an everyday missionary, lit up with love is for you. You can pre-order that now.
Derek Vreeland: All right, so y’all go out pre-order Derwin’s new book. Make sure you also get a copy of How to Heal a Racial Divide and important book for the church today. Go to his website, follow him on Instagram, especially if you want to see those sweet dance moves. And uh Derwin, I love you, brother. Thanks for being with us today. Hey, I love you too, man. Keep up the great work, my friend. Bye. All right. That’s all we have for today.
Guest: Thanks for listening. Go in peace and be kind.
This transcript was generated with AI and may contain errors.