Show Notes
In this episode of Peaceable and Kind, host Derek Vreeland is joined by his friend and pastor, Brian Zahnd, for a wide-ranging conversation that blends rock & roll, theology, and personal transformation.
Brian and Derek reflect on their shared history in the Charismatic Movement—and why both eventually felt called to pack their bags and move on. Using Bob Dylan’s “Maggie’s Farm” as a guiding metaphor, they explore how art, imagination, and poetic theology helped them step away from narrow subcultures and reclaim a deeper, truer spiritual identity.
Brian talks about how Bob Dylan’s lyrics sparked his love for language—and how that shaped the way he thinks and talks about God. He also shares which books first opened up his theological imagination and how the Holy Spirit led him out of a rigid, formulaic faith into something much richer—rooted in beauty, history, and freedom.
If you’ve ever struggled to stay true to your convictions in a system that demanded conformity—or wondered how music, literature, and art can renew your spiritual life—this conversation is for you.
Key Takeaways
✔️ How Bob Dylan’s poetry can reframe your theology ✔️ What it means to “leave the movement, not the experience” ✔️ Why imagination and language matter in theological formation ✔️ The role of books, church history, and beauty in spiritual renewal ✔️ How to stay faithful to your story when others want you to conform
🎧 Listen now and rediscover the freedom of becoming fully yourself—with the Holy Spirit as your guide and a Dylan song in your heart.
Books mentioned in this episode:
The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard
Jesus and the Victory of God by N.T. Wright
The New Testament and the People of God by N.T. Wright
The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright
You can learn more about Brian Zahnd’s books at: https://amzn.to/4f2sCUo
Preorder Derek’s new book, Incarnation: 8 Lessons on How God Meets Us here: https://amzn.to/42jSZAs
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Get to know the host: https://derekvreeland.com
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Transcript
Narrator: Welcome back to Another episode of Peaceable and Kind, where we are planting seeds of peaceableness and kindness in an angry and hostile world. I am your host, Derek Vreeland, and I’m glad that you have joined me for this episode. Because we’re going to have a great conversation today. But before we get to the conversation, let me encourage you to leave a rating and a review That helps other people find this podcast. And if you like this episode, and I think you’re gonna like this episode. But if you like this episode, I would love you would share it with a friend, post it on social media. That helps us a whole lot My guest today is Brian Zond. He is the founding pastor of Word of Life Church, a church he has led with his wife Perry for nearly 45 years. And I know about this church because it’s my church. It’s where I serve as the discipleship pastor. Brian is the author of several books, including The Wood Between the Worlds, When Everything’s On Fire. Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God, and my favorite, still my favorite BZ book, A Farewell to Mars. Brian holds an honorary doctorate from St. Stephen’s University. He is a passionate fan of the Kansas City Chiefs, more than most of you know. Uh Brian’s also a rock and roll aficionado, a true Dylanologist. And I’m happy not only to call him my pastor, but my friend. We call him BZ. BZ, welcome to peaceable and kind.
Derek Vreeland: Thank you, Derek. It’s good to be here talking about all kinds of things I like. So this will be fun.
Narrator: This is going to be really fun. You and I have conversations all the time. And so it’ll be fun because we know each other. We have a rapport. We like a lot of the same things. And on this episode, we’re going to talk about Bob Dylan and theology. This is right up your alley. I can do this. You have come into the kingdom for such a moment as this. And really, you were the one when I was pastoring in Georgia. I invited you to come preach at our church. And we were in my office at the church and just talking, I think, before a service, and you had asked me, hey, do you listen to much Bob Dylan? And this was probably 2005. And I said, well, you know, slow train coming, uh saved, you know, the gospel albums. I got those. I like those, but that’s probably it. And you’re like, oh. There’s a whole world to explore. And uh I think I put a couple of Dylan albums uh on my Christmas list, Christmas two thousand five. I think Modern Times had just come out. Was that oh four? When was Modern Times released? Um around that time.
Derek Vreeland: Uh yeah, six.
Narrator: Six? Okay. So maybe this was oh six. It was, you know, we’re talking twenty years ago. But you had kind of kicked open the Dylan door for me. And, you know, this was twenty years ago before all of our music was streaming. And uh I I got a couple of Dylan CDs. Yeah, that it must have been oh six, because I remember getting modern times and I think I got Bring It All Back Home and a couple others, and it just opened up something in me. uh to which I appreciate that you opened that door. And I know that Dylan has had a huge effect on you. I’ve heard you describe, you know, Bob Dylan as the soundtrack of your life, but I’m curious How has Dylan as a poet and an artist shaped your theology? Because I think people don’t realize how much art and poetry has had an effect on your theology.
Derek Vreeland: Well, I would say that I understand theology as an artistic creative process. Now people can misunderstand when I say that. Sure. But what I’m saying is i if you if you try to make theology too much a science and not as much an art, I I think you’re going to have something that’s stiff and wooden and probably wrong. Dylan, who Leonard Cohen said he’s a once in a five hundred year kind of artist. I mean he’s different. You don’t you don’t compare Dylan to the Beatles, you compare Dylan to Shakespeare and that sort of thing. So, you know Yeah. He g he’s he’s got all the music awards that everybody else has got, but he’s also got a Grammy for literature. Not a Grammy, a Nobel Prize for Literature. All right. So Uh I would say uh it’s really from Dylan that I early on got my love of language. And that’s that’s what because I was I was a rocker, like a hard, heavy guy, Zeppelin, that sort of thing. But in January 1975, I heard for the first time, I mean, I knew of Dylan. I knew of, you know, like Blowing in the Wind and Knocking on Heaven’s Door, a few of these songs. But uh the Blood on the Tracks album came out and tangled up in blue. And I just loved the the poetic language. And so I don’t know. I mean, I I I can’t say that, you know, Dylan hasn’t affected my theology in the same way that, you know, an N. T. Wright or Stanley Haroass or Walter Brugeman has, but it’s just the gift of language. and that theology is the attempt to give language to the ineffable. Right. To what in one sense cannot be spoken. Yeah, it seems like that’s a stab at wh how it’s affected me. No, I I I I see that.
Narrator: And I think in The Whip Between the Worlds, I think the subtitle uh there is the the phrase theotic or right theological poetic theology uh poetic theology I was working at it and I think there is something missing in theology if we don’t incorporate the poets. I mean just understanding the Hebrew prophets requires a a an imagination shaped by poetry. And so Bob Dylan has been called uh the poet laureate of rock and roll. Um and I always think of Dylan as a as a poet first and and then a musician second. And, you know, if God, if we use the transcendentals to speak of God as as ultimate truth, ultimate goodness We also have to recognize that God is ultimate beauty. And so it’s the it’s the poets that help us unlock that and then to see our work of theology, essentially what we What we think about God, what we say, what we communicate about the God revealed in Jesus requires language and not just scientific language, but poetic language. So I see that for sure. Right. So you and I have both been participants in the charismatic movement. Um I went to Oral Roberts University, Pentecostal Charismatic. seminary and I certainly would have identified myself um early on in my ministry years as a charismatic but Something happened in that 04, 05, 06 season. Uh something’s happening here and you don’t know what it is. And so Interestingly, you were in Missouri, I was in Georgia, but I think we were both sensing a similar drawing of the Holy Spirit to step away. uh from the popular charismatic movement, which we you’ve talked about in your book, Water to Wine. And I just recorded a podcast episode describing why I stepped away from the charismatic movement. But in trying to describe that to people, I’ve really appreciated the language you use of you you packed your bags And uh and and sense the Lord leading you away. But you we we packed our bags and I I I I agree and I feel that language. That’s what I did. I didn’t throw everything away from my charismatic experience, but I’ve struggled to really articulate in a respectful way why I had to move on. And I think Dylan’s song, Maggie’s Farm, is the perfect set of metaphors. to describe, at least for me, why I had to move on. So what what I want to do is is talk about that song and talk about the metaphor and talk about the language. that Dylan uses in that song uh to kind of flesh out why why we had to pack our bags and move on. So let me ask before we get into the song, just Talk to us a little bit about the importance of that song, not only for Dylan, but for the for the history of rock and roll.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, okay, so um this is 1965. This is the first of the triplet of albums that just came out in 16 months, Dylan puts out. Bringing it All Back Home, Highway 61 Revisited, and then the double album Blonde on Blonde. Those were written and recorded in 16 months. Essentially four albums, you know, because Blonde on blonde’s a double album. But the first of those is um um bringing it all back home. Maggie’s Farm is third track on side one. And um What this is, I’m just gonna tell you what the song’s about, although it’s kind of dangerous to do that with because the reason that this song works for you in giving vocabulary to your own experience is that Dylan always writes with enough ambiguity to give the listener room to import their own meaning. So it means this to this person, it means that to another person, and it they’re not the same. Uh that that that’s why Dylan doesn’t do propaganda. That is, where we’re I’m telling you this is what you need to think. It’s he do that’s not art, that’s propaganda. Right. So but Maggie’s farm, I would say, I think I’m pretty accurate on this This uh is a protest song against protest singers. Because they they they were trying to they mean kind of the folky movement and the kind of the The the folk movement which was also very much in lockstep with a a a real far left progressive movement in politics and they wanted Dylan to be their champion. You know, just to sit around and just crank out Topical protest songs. You know, and he they they wanted 500 versions of Blown in the Wind or The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll or something like that. And Dylan is not gonna do that. And he’s not gonna do that. He’s not gonna be put into that box. And that’s what Maggie’s farm, I think that’s the inspiration for Maggie’s farm. I think that’s where that comes from But then it’s it becomes even more famous when at the Newport Folk Festival. This is y’all go see the movie. Yeah. You know Uh what is the name of the movie? A complete unknown. A complete unknown, yeah. Uh th this, you know, the the movie centers around this moment That uh as you as you just said, it’s it’s 60 years ago tomorrow.
Narrator: Crazy. Crazy. Yeah, we’re recording in July, and we’re recording this almost 60 years to the day. Yeah.
Derek Vreeland: So Dylan shows up at the Newport he’s headlining the Newport Folk Festival and he’s gone electric. And and man, the people are not happy. And the the famous song that he actually, the first electric song that he plays that upsets a lot of people is this song. Maggie’s farm with Mike Bloomfield on guitar and it’s it’s uh you can hear I mean the they’re out there you can find the the actual recording from that time. So anyway, that’s so thematically it’s a protest against protest movements. But then he plays it as a protest against being forced to be a protest singer. He’s protesting against being forced to be a protest singer.
Narrator: Yeah, because Dylan wasn’t going to be forced into anything. You know, and that’s the true heart of an artist, right? They want to follow inspiration and not what any sort of genre of music. And there’s the uh There’s the famous, uh, though the details um are told in different ways, that Pete Seeger uh wanted to take an axe and chop the electric cords because he he was so upset. And I think in the movie, and I don’t know how historically accurate, but in the movie it’s you know Pete Seeger i was a was a leading voice in that folk movement, really pressuring Dylan uh to be their next spokesman and uh he he wasn’t gonna have it.
Derek Vreeland: I mean Pete Seeger, God bless him, he r he remained that. He was kind of a lefty protest singer and he stayed that way his whole career. Good good for him. I’m all for it. Right. But Dylan wasn’t gonna do that. He was Uh he contains multitudes and he’s gonna be he he wanted that freedom to write whatever he wanted to write about.
Narrator: So he he writes and famously sings, Maggie’s Farm. And um yeah, you’re right. I think great art. You mentioned earlier that the beauty of this song, like so many Dylan songs is that it’s beautiful in the sense that different people can bring their experiences to the song and it affect them because it affects me on on a like an emotional level. Like not just um, you know, lyrical content, but I I I feel it and this is one that I feel. So five verses to Maggie’s Farm. Let’s just walk through it and because why it moved me so much is when I was in this Journey of stepping away from the charismatic movement. Interestingly enough, one of the memories I have when I was pastoring in Georgia is I had worked with our board of elders to really rethink our leadership structure and our vibe and our mission. And part of it was, you know, we had one of these statements of faith that nondenominational charismatic churches had. I didn’t yet have the wisdom to just tell them go with the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed, but I wanted to refresh it so that it really had less of the charismatic distinctives in it. And uh it was a it was a wonderful meeting. There was such consensus, and when I was driving away, I was listening to Maggie’s farm, and I looked down, and I kid you not, I was wearing a black leather jacket. And so at the Newburgh Folk Festival and you can see not only hear the audio, but you can see uh the video. Go to YouTube and you can you can watch the video. Because you know, Dylan, you know, he comes out, it’s at night and he’s got his black leather jacket on and Uh so yeah, as I was in this journey, it’s boky, right? I mean not at all.
Derek Vreeland: He was everything was intentional.
Narrator: Yeah, I I I I love it so much. But yeah, so in that moment of helping this church rethink its identity, sort of You know, again, packing its bags, not leaving behind all charismatic distinctives, but shifting some things. In that meeting, I was wearing a black leather jacket, didn’t even know it Hey friends, I wanted to pause for just a second to let you know that my next book, Incarnation, 8 Lessons on How God Meets Us, is available for pre-order. This Bible study is for individual devotional use or for small group discussion. Link to pre-order is in the show notes. Okay, so five verses to Maggie’s Farm. Let’s walk through and uh I’ll just get your reaction to some of these pictures and images that really speak to you in your journey uh when you’re what you describe as your water to wine journey, uh moving on from the charismatic movement. Alright, so here we go. And I’m just gonna read it. I’m definitely not gonna sing it. I’m gonna read it Verse 1, I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more. No, I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more. Well, I wake up in the morning, fold my hands, and pray for rain. I got a head full of ideas that are driving me insane. It’s a shame the way she makes me scrub the floor. I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more. What stands out to you in verse one?
Derek Vreeland: Um, I’ll tell a story. First of all, a as as the song moves on, Dylan is, I think, sometimes underappreciated for his humor. There’s a lot of funny things in there. Yeah. The first verse isn’t so much so, but I had a I had an occasion, I don’t want to tell the whole story too long, but when a publisher was asking if They wanted another book. I’d written a book for ‘em, it had done well, and they wanted another book. And so I was having this conference call. There were there were seven people in suits on the other end of the line and I was sitting on my front porch talking to them and they said Do you have any other ideas? Yeah, for writing a book? And I I I I promise you I said exactly this. I said I wake up in the morning, fold my hands and pray for rain. I got a headful of ideas that are driving me insane. Yeah. And it was just dead silence. I didn’t get it. No nobody got it, you know. And I didn’t bother to explain. I didn’t say oh this is a Bob Dylan. No, I just said it like that and just left it
Narrator: Well, I love that in your preaching and in your in your books you you drop little Dylan lines and uh little Easter eggs for those of us who are Dylan fans. But yeah, so in your Water to Wine journey, you did have uh headful of ideas and I know it was driving you insane. What did you do with those ideas?
Derek Vreeland: Well let me let me respond to it this way. When I say or when we say left the charismatic movement. What I want to stress is what I was really leaving was the movement, not the experience.
Narrator: Very good.
Derek Vreeland: The actual original hallmarks of the charismatic movement beginning in the early 70s, I think those those were wonderful. You know, an actual experience of God in the Holy Spirit. I completely believe in that. But what had happened was it had turned into a, it sort of calcified into a movement that had these different emphases that you had to, you know, endorse and embrace. And the prosperity thing, kind of the celebrity culture, the TV preachers, very American, very tied in with right-wing American politics. uh anti-intellectual, shallow in theology. That’s that’s what I was reacting. I just well I’m that’s I’m not gonna be that Anymore. I’m done with that. I want a deeper faith. I want a uh a richer faith. I want a a wider expression of faith. I don’t want to just have to stay in this little narrow camp. ‘Cause by this time it was pretty much all things charismatic were more or less word of faith. You know, that’s kind of what it was. And I just thought, well, I I I’m not gonna no. I’m not gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more. And and back to And you can tell me that this is what you have to do, I’m not gonna do it.
Narrator: And back to Dylan, a lot of people don’t don’t know that Dylan early on became a reader. And so he uses this phrase that he lost his passion for dumbness. Because you he you see it in his lyrics, references to classic literature and things, but But even even Dylan, you know, he he had a head full of ideas driving him insane because he wasn’t going to be locked into the distinctive. He’s a massive reader.
Derek Vreeland: And he doesn’t talk about that a lot, but it comes through and you see it. Yeah. Yeah. And if if I ever had a conversation with him, uh that might be the one thing that I could steer the conversation for that wouldn’t just totally bore him. You know, because I what are you gonna do about it? I just I really love your music. He’s heard that you know a gazillion times. I I would say, what do you what have you been reading lately? What are some of the best things you’ve read lately? And that that might have a chance.
Narrator: Maybe have a chance, but I don’t think any conversation with Dylan would be led by you, would be led by Dylan, but No, I would love to hear that too, because you can tell in his music. He’s he’s well read. And you know, for me it has this line.
Derek Vreeland: He reads a lot of history. I know that.
Narrator: Yep. Uh the and then the first verse, uh this line it’s a shame the way she makes me scrub the floor, you know. And and to me and thinking about my spiritual journey, it’s not that I’m unwilling to do menial tasks. Of course, I’ll I’ll do whatever as a pastor, but just in the charismatic movement, it’s like, no, they just want you scrubbing the floor. And I’m like, I want to explore the rest of the house, right? The the house of Christian theology and you got me stuck here scrubbing this floor. Yeah, I’m moving on. All right, verse two. Let’s keep it going. Verse two, I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s brother no more. No, I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s brother no more. Well he hands you a nickel, he hands you a dime, he asks you with a grin if you’re having a good time. Then he finds you every time you slam the door. I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s brother no more. Dylan was definitely reacting to the music industry. I’ve heard a lot of independent artists talk about that. feeling like they get nickel and dimed. But I’m wondering about that as a metaphor for the charismatic movement. And again, I’m talking about like the pop charismatic movement because for me that he hands you a nickel, he hands you a dime. I’m thinking about those little short little charismatic books that I used to read, you know, back in the day. And it just felt like nickels and dimes. You know what I’m saying?
Derek Vreeland: Well, yeah, yeah. If again, I see this is how it speaks to you. I would never have thought about that with that line, but I get what you’re saying because with the c w at that time and I think it’s probably even worse now, I don’t know, but there was only There there there were there were thousands and thousands of charismatic books, but there’s only about three. Yes. They’re all poorly written. They’re you know little thin things that that are sermons turned into books, very prescriptive how to you know, how to prosper, how to succeed in life, how to da da da and so yeah, I got I I beg I got serious about theology, which which you would think would go w would be what pastors and should be doing. But uh uh w when I really got serious about theology, I mean in the sense that now I’m reading serious theology And then I would try to steer the conversation that way with some of my charismatic compadre pastor friends. It was shocking how many of them just had zero interest in that They were interested in church stuff, like church growth and you know, budgets and parking lots and w whatever. But to actually sit and have a serious theological discussion, they weren’t really that interested in it.
Narrator: Right. And so all along, you know, they’re asking us, I had similar, you know, experiences with pastor friends in in my circle So you’re having these conversations, and in a sense, they’re asking you, well, aren’t you having a good time? We’re talking about church growth and expanding the parking lot. And I’m like, no, I’m not interested in all that at all. And there is a fine, right? So in the second verse, and he finds you every time you slam the door. So you want to walk out of some of those conversations. There is a sort of uh relational fine, like, okay, what’s wrong with this guy? Why is he not participating in this? Why does he want to Why is he not with us anymore with this and and uh so there is kind of a relational find. Let’s move on to the next verse verse three I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s paw no more. No, I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s paw no more. Well he puts his cigar out in your face just for kicks. His bedroom window It is made out of bricks. The National Guard stands around his door. I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s paw no more. This line in the middle of this verse, the bedroom window made out of bricks that speaks of the sectarian nature of the popular charismatic movement.
Derek Vreeland: Like silo. You’re you’re in your own world. You can’t you you’re not you you don’t know anything that goes on beyond that little confine. Yeah, exactly.
Narrator: And and it’s so limiting because in my experience You know, I so I go to Oral Roberts University because I was a committed charismatic, but what happened to me in the seminary there is they opened up the windows. um right of church history and the great tradition and biblical languages and substantive theology And I had felt like I was in a silo for a long time, that little pop charismatic bubble. But when my professors at ORU opened up the windows, it was like I I saw a whole new world. And that’s why I couldn’t stay. I couldn’t stay on Maggie’s farm because their bedroom window is made out of bricks. When um w well when you think about Um in your own journey, I know you have you’ve talked about this and you’ve written about this, uh, but books were an important part for you. You had, as you mentioned, you read the three charismatic books. Um, but part of the window I know for you was literature um and other theological works. What were you first reading um in the beginning of your water to wine journey?
Derek Vreeland: I was already beginning to explore Church Fathers and reading philosophy because I hadn’t found the good stuff yet theologically. Right. But I know I knew that was good for my soul. It was rich. And so I was embracing that. But the breakthrough moment came when I read Dallas Willard’s The Divine Conspiracy, which I won’t tell the whole story, I’ve told it other times, other places, but That book, Perry brought me that, I just prayed, God, show me what to read. And she walks in the room, hands me this book. She hadn’t read it. She found it in our house. To this day, we don’t know how it got in our house. And so that was that was what kicked open the door. And the it’s a it first of all, it’s an excellent book. It’s excellent. It’s a tremendous book. But it w but its influence on me was more than just that book. What it did was now I had found the thread. And so Dallas Willard leads to other to other to other to other things. You know, and so once once you get on that thread, then you can start following it And very quickly on, uh, the next person that I really found was N.T. Wright. Oh yeah And uh and I binged on his stuff. And I started with those real big books. At that time, there were only two out yet. There was uh New Testament and the People of God and Jesus and the Victory of God And then I and then when the resurrection, the Son of God came out, I read that. But I was reading his other stuff too. But Jesus and the Victory of God, to this day, I I it’s in my top three or four most influential books of theology I’ve ever read.
Narrator: Yeah.
Derek Vreeland: And again, it’s it’s hard to tell, is that that good? I think it probably is, but it’s also, you know, the time in which you read something. Right. And it was my first encounter with pretty serious New Testament scholarship. And I I loved it.
Narrator: And now you’re getting the good stuff.
Derek Vreeland: Right. And then Brugeman was probably next.
Narrator: Oh yeah. Well you need Brugeman to counterbalance because uh Wright is a New Testament scholar, so you need Brugeman and Wright. But in that in that charismatic subculture, yeah, there is a there is a there there there are bricks in their windows. They’re not looking out to anything else.
Derek Vreeland: It’s shocking. I don’t want to sit here and just talk bad about it, but I mean it is shocking how little, how how how poorly read many charismatic leaders are At some point it has to be intentional. They’re afraid to read beyond their narrow little room. Right. Because it might change them. Yeah. It might change their mind. It might yeah, and they just won’t do it. Right. And so when you stay begged them, you know, you’ll read this book and and they wouldn’t do it.
Narrator: Yeah, no. There’s a lot of fear involved But it it seems to me that like the right book in the right season is what the Holy Spirit can use to bust open those windows, kick open that door. into a new world. And I’ve just encouraged, I’ve encouraged not only charismatic leaders, but people in different theological traditions, just read outside your tradition. So I’ve had two seminary experiences and the biggest deficit was I got nothing from the Eastern Church, from Eastern Orthodoxy. And so I had to play some ketchup there because I didn’t I didn’t know about this whole world. Um but yeah, it’s so it’s one of the reasons I had I had to move away from Maggie’s farm. Okay, we got two more verses. Let’s look at verse four I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Maw no more. No, I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Ma no more. Well, she talks to all the servants about man and God and law. Everybody says she’s the brains behind paw. There’s a little bit of humor. She’s now this is the official lyrics. She’s sixty eight, but she says she’s fifty-four. I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s Maw no more. And if you listen to Dylan sing live over the years, he’ll change those numbers.
Derek Vreeland: On the album, he sings. She’s she says she’s 68. She’s 68, but says she’s 54. That’s what he sings. Right. But actually in the published lyrics, his published lyrics, it’s twenty-four. And that’s what he tends to say these days. Okay. So, you know
Narrator: But there is She’s sixty eight but says she’s twenty-four. Yeah. So it it it felt like uh to me, and again, this is this is my experience, and I’m not here to rail against you know people who are your peace of that’s me you know me I’m a peacemaker And I and I have great friends that are would still identify with the charismatic movement. And and you can stay in the charismatic movement and you can break down those bricks. But again, so from my experience, uh just that to that line, you know, whatever numbers, 68, 54, 68, 24. Um there is for me in for my experience, there was a little bit of, how shall I call it? Let’s call it maybe in its most positive sense, exaggeration in the charismatic movement. There has been some deception. There’s just some the way things are talked about publicly is not always the most transparent way of talking about God and about ministry. And I just had some experience as a youth pastor working with youth speakers that were a lot like that. Like they’re saying one thing, but uh they’re they’re thinking of the head.
Derek Vreeland: Endemic of institutions. Of course. And you can find the same thing in the Baptist world, the Catholic world, the Orthodox world.
Narrator: Yes. Unfortunately. Yeah, it’s not just limited to that. Okay, let’s wrap up with the final verse. Verse 5. I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more. I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more. Well, I try my best To be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. They say, sing while you slave, and I just get bored. I ain’t gonna work on Maggie’s farm no more. Yeah, this one for me just speaks of the boredom I felt because, and I’ve heard you describe your story similarly. that when we were shaped by the distinctives of this charismatic subculture, pop, charismatic subculture. I I I wasn’t being myself and I was I was bored. I remember the last uh charismatic pastors conference I went to, I was bored the entire time. I just like, this is not where I belong anymore.
Derek Vreeland: Uh I will say that line actually did come to me several times during those early years of the the great transition, 2004, 5, 6, 7. Um I mean, I would often think I try my best to be just like I am, because I’d found this Kierkegaard line. Now by the help of God I shall become myself. And I felt like part of what was happening was I was slowly being erased. I was I was being forced to become a person I really wasn’t. And so I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. They say sing while you slave slave while you sing. I just got bored. I’m not gonna work on that charismatic farm normal.
Narrator: Yeah, so the it the song wraps up with such this beautiful metaphor for for my experience too. Uh that that just wasn’t who I was. And I think again any kind of I think that’s if you want to get to the actual what Dylan I think that’s Dylan sort of like clapping back at Pete Seeger and that bunch. Right. You’re trying to make me something that I’m not. But I think any kind of social construct, any kind of subculture has unspoken values that put pressure on you that if you’re going to be one of us, you look like this, you emphasize these things. And for me, as good as the charismatic movement was for a lot of people, it just it wasn’t who I was anymore. I it wasn’t just that I wasn’t entertained, that kind of bored. It was I was not being intellectually stimulated. and it was making me into something I wasn’t. And so because of that, I had to move on. And that’s your story. Uh let me ask you to wrap up with uh sharing a story if I can, if I can ask for a story. Again, I’ve I’ve pastored with you, been with you so long. I know a lot of your B Z stories, but you you’ve told a story about in your charismatic days going shopping with a bunch of pastors. Uh you want to tell that story?
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, I will. Uh so I was uh I’m gonna try to disguise I was in Texas, I can say that much.
Narrator: All right.
Derek Vreeland: And it was a week-long conference. at a particular church. There was a pastor and then there were two main speakers. I was one of the two main speakers. There’s and there was an evangelist from California. And they one afternoon they said, let’s go shopping. I was like, no, good night. You know, like like as like this was I don’t know, entertainment or something. So we went to a mall. This would have been, I don’t know what year. This would have been 2000. This is very early on, four or five, something like that. And because I was still kind of in that world, but moving away. Right. And uh so we went shopping with the the Texas pastor and the California evangelist and me. And uh both these guys bought watches. So good for you guys. And they said, well you you need you need to buy so I don’t need a watch. They said, no, you do you gotta buy something. I said Okay, you’re right. I do have to buy something. Come with me. And I took him into a record store, a music store. Yeah. And I bought a copy of Deep Pur uh C D Deep Purple Machine Head. I love that album. There’s a whole story behind that album about m about I that’s what I wanted for Christmas when I was fourteen. And you know, you have a little you know how you have a list and on my list was Deep Purple Machine Head. And it showed up, you know Christmas morning under the tree, and my mom says to me, I want you to know, Brian, that your grandpa um bought that for you. He he went to the music land. Oh wow. my my grandfather Hardy was a very proper man, kind of stately. Certainly what we would today say just, you know, old school. I mean he he he would hate deep purple, you understand? I mean down to the last marrow of his bones he would hate. I could just picture him walking in and uh Yes, I would like to make a purchase. I would like to purchase a recording of he looks at his little slip of paper. Deep purple machine head. So anyway, uh I you know, I didn’t have it any longer. I mean I didn’t have it on C D. So I thought, ah, I want that. So so I went And they’re with me, right? The Texas pastor, the California evangelist, and they say, you can’t buy that. That’s of the devil. Shut up. Your watches are of the devil. By the way, this is the album for people that don’t know that has Smoke on the Water, Highway Star, Space Trucking, Lazy. It’s just a great rock album. But but there was meaning in that actually, Derek. It’s not just a funny story. It was me returning to myself.
Narrator: Yes.
Derek Vreeland: I thought, wait a minute, I am not this All got up in a suit all day long, hair slick back, evangelist that is typical of the charismatic word of faith movement I’m B Z the rocker from Savannah, Missouri, who loves deep purple and things like that. And so that was me reasserting. Yeah. I’m gonna be just who I am. Yes. And I’m not gonna be just like them. I’m gonna be who I am. Yeah. And so So that was that was a close call because you know, I could have I mean, I was in my forties by then. And so, you know, it was time for me to get back to who I am. Yeah.
Narrator: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can say this after knowing you now. What are we going on? 25 plus years. You’re the best B Z out there. There’s only one, and that’s you. Well, listen, thank you so much for the conversation today. This was fun. I Thoroughly enjoyed it. And normally I ask guests where they can find you online, but I’m gonna tell you if you are listening, I know where you can find them online. Go follow. BZ on Instagram. He’s Brian’s eye on Instagram. He’s on Facebook. He’s on Blue Sky. Go go give him a follow on social media. BZ, thanks again for joining me. I appreciate it.
Derek Vreeland: Thank you, Derek.
Narrator: Well, that’s all we have for you today. Thank you for joining us. Go in peace and be kind.
This transcript was generated with AI and may contain errors.