Show Notes
In this episode of Peaceable and Kind, Derek Vreeland sits down with Mark DeYmaz, the founder of Mosaic Church of Central Arkansas and a leading voice in the multiethnic church movement. They talk about Mark’s newest book, Make Me an Instrument of Your Peace. Drawing from the Prayer of St. Francis, Mark offers a vision for becoming more like Jesus in a divided world.
Mark shares his spiritual journey from a Catholic upbringing and Jesuit education to a personal awakening of faith during his college years. They talk about their shared love for the music and passion of Keith Green and how formative it was for them both. Mark also reflects the challenging of leaving a successful youth ministry in order to plant a multiethnic church, which was anchored in his family’s motto: faith, courage, and sacrifice.
Together, Derek and Mark explore the church’s credibility crisis in a culture marked by division, the importance of embodying good works before speaking good words, and why peacemaking must hold together both love and justice. They also discuss the role of fear in fueling division and what it means for Christians to faithfully engage a fractured world without retreating into silence or reacting without wisdom.
Books Mentioned
Make Me an Instrument of Your Peace — Mark DeYmaz
Scriptures Mentioned
Matthew 5:16 • Isaiah 61
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Book 1: Incarnation: 8 Lessons on How God Meets Us || https://amzn.to/42jSZAs
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Book 3: Resurrection: 8 Lessons on How God Restores Us || https://amzn.to/40T0sp0
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Transcript
Narrator: Welcome back. To another episode of Peaceable and Kind. I am your host, Derek Vreeland. I’m glad that you have joined me for this episode today. As you know, I am a reader and and an author. I love books. My life is surrounded by books. It seems like there’s never a time I don’t have one or two books in my hand and I I’m excited today to have a conversation with the author of a new book. And I know you’re going to enjoy this conversation. I know it’s going to encourage you and challenge you, but Before I jump into that conversation, if you haven’t already, uh subscribe to Peaceable and Kind. And if you like the work we’re doing. Recommend this episode or share this episode or a previous episode with a friend and leave a rating and review. Every once in a while I peek into the reviews, and if you leave a review, I’ll read it here on the podcast. But thank you for doing that. My guest today is Mark Damas, and he is the founder and pastor of Mosaic Church in Central Arkansas, just to my south. He co-founded the Mosaics Global Network. He is the executive director of Wheaton College Billy Graham Center’s Mosaics Institute. He has written several books for leaders, Building a Healthy Multi-ethnic Church, Disruption, and the Coming Revolution in Church Economics, and his newest book Make me an instrument of your peace, becoming more like Jesus through the prayer of Saint Francis Is the book that we’re going to talk about today? Mark, welcome to Peaceable and Kind. Yeah, Derek, thanks so much for having me. I have been looking forward to this conversation. You uh published this book with Nav Press, and your editor was my editor on a previous book. I did with Nav and when she reached out to me and said, Hey, would you just look over this manuscript? I think you might like it. And I was two chapters into the manuscript and I thought, Mark is my brother. Like we are traveling along the same way. And I’m a huge fan of this prayer for its formative power. And so uh I’m so glad to finally have a face to face and sit down and have a conversation about your work.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah well likewise I know uh Deb, she’s an amazing editor. Uh just in fact If the book, if anybody says the book is uh awesome, great, whatever, if they really love it, hey, it’s not me. It was Deb. All right. I give her all the credit. She’s an amazing person and amazing editor.
Narrator: Yeah, I loved working with her. Um, well, so for those who are listening who may not be familiar um with your church, with your network, uh with your writing. Uh tell us a little bit just about your your spiritual journey. I’m I’m curious uh about that. You uh as you describe in the book, you you start in a Catholic church where you first learned and memorized this prayer, but Anyway, just tell us a little bit about your faith journey.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, I uh was born out of wedlock 1961 at a time when only six percent of kids were born out in that situation without fathers in the home in American history, 1961. And uh but my mother was devout. Um we she raised me in the Catholic faith. Uh and that was my experience uh both in childhood and then later on I attended Catholic schools beginning in seventh grade, Jesuit prep school uh for high school uh in Phoenix, Arizona where we lived. Um I was on a work scholarship program by the way, so I I was had this tremendous education with the Jesuits, worked in the rectories for six years on a work scholarship. was an altar boy, now an altar person. So all to say, I uh yeah, I was um uh deeply embedded in the Catholic faith, school, working in the rectories, serving as an altar boy. Um, and and and had a tremendous head knowledge, if you will, of Christ and of the Christian faith. Uh at 19 years old, playing college baseball, I ran into some highly committed Christ followers. Then that is where I uh decided to uh you know step on the gas, so to speak, in terms of that Christian faith uh at nineteen uh and and really you know that someone once said the difference the distance between heaven and hell is twelve inches your head to your heart. So at nineteen that that message of Christ, his love for us, grace, mercy, forgiveness who he was and devoting your life to him really uh uh got into me. Uh and then I was on a full ride baseball scholarship at Liberty University. I went from Jesuit Catholicism, Derek, to independent fundamentalist Baptist overnight. Uh we’re attending seven church services, etc. But a tremendous time of formation. I feel like I was discipled by Keith Green music. Oh yeah. By Keith Green and his music back in the early uh mid to late 70s or early eighties Uh too slow to get drafted, uh became uh was hired as a high school pastor in a conservative Baptist church in Phoenix and two years later went up to seminary, uh a non-denominational seminary. Again, got into ministry as a youth pastor in a non-denominational church. So that led to an 18-year career in student ministries. The final eight of those took me to a church here. In Little Rock, Arkansas. Again, I’m from the West. My wife is from the West. But we landed in Little Rock in a church that was 2,000 when we got here, exploded to 5,000 in the next eight years. My youth group 150 to 600. You know, I had a three and a half million dollar student center I got to design and build. I had nine full-time staff. I’m in the top two percent of paid youth pastors in America. I was living the dream until 1997 when I looked around this otherwise amazing church. And realized the only people of color were janitors. Oh wow. And that began to bother me. But I didn’t know in nineteen ninety-seven why that bothered me, but something didn’t sit well with that. And as I continued my ministry for the next four years there, I began to think deeply about the New Testament church. Was it in fact segregated, Jews and Gentiles, as I’d been taught in seminary? Was uh it biblical to plant, grow, and develop churches focused on a single people group as I’d been taught, uh a misunderstanding of McGavern’s homogeneous unit principle. So I I began to question that and came to my own conclusions not my own theology. I have a master’s degree in exegetical theology and now a doctorate of D Min. And uh and and I’ll to say I I I realized that churches in the New Testament were what we would say today multi-ethnic or intercultural in Europe. Men and women, Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, willing themselves to walk, work, worship God together as one. Uh not because of changing demographics or because it’s cool, but because it’s right, it’s biblical, it’s advancing a credible gospel. You cannot continue to tell people God loves all people and expect that message to be believed from segregated pulpits and pews. So that led my wife and I to leave that church in 2001, come to the inner city of Little Rock, highest violent crime, 67% of kids growing up without dads in the home as I did. uh uh uh food insecurity, you name it, uh opioid addiction, the homeless, and determined to basically establish a church for all people, not just some and uh and kind of follow uh Christ’s uh prescription, if you will, Matthew 5. 16, to let them see our good work, not just hear our good words, but actually let them see our good work. so that a light might shine on who he is and how great his love is for all people. And essentially I, you know, back in the late 90s, early 2000s, realized if if Christ taught us to pray, Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. on earth as it is in heaven, I began to ask myself a question if the kingdom of heaven is not segregated, why on earth is the church? And that’s the question I’ve been out trying to chase the answer to and and and pursue for 25 years. The last twenty-five years of my forty-three years now in full-time ministry.
Narrator: Mark, your book is great and I want to get to it. There is so much about your spiritual journey that I want to dive into Uh just because I too felt discipled uh by the beloved Keith Green, I have uh a small vinyl collection, uh, but Keith is a part of that. I was a freshman in college in nineteen ninety-two, the fall of nineteen ninety-two, and I I was not yet aware of liturgical practices. But I listened to uh the Keith Green ministry years, uh Silver CDs every day. It was it was a liturgy. I I was so formed and shaped by Keats, not necessarily his music, but but his passion. And so I can imagine a fellow young adult who has hit the gas and goes all in with Jesus um listening to Keith Green uh receiving that same kind of passion and I I can imagine, because I did student ministry as well, only five years, uh, but I I went, you know, right out of seminary into into student ministry. uh you know, before uh serving, you know, a congregation as as lead pastor and all that. Um but that that passion I got from Keith’s music early on, it’s still it’s still within me. And I can imagine for you Making the decision to step away from a successful youth ministry. Because I remember being a youth pastor and going to youth conferences and hearing guys like you talk. You know, and dreaming of building my own ministry complex and and growth and numbers and and so you reach the pinnacle of success. Um, but I’m wondering if perhaps some of the the early seeds of your faith stirred in your heart by people like Keith Green, um, sort of built within you the the character and the courage to step away from something that the world would call successful. to go in to do something hard because that was a part, you know, of Keats’ ministry. You know, towards the end as he w before he died, he was traveling around all these YWAM bases and seeing all these missionary endeavors and he was calling people to to give up, you know, success and comfort to go after God. So I’m I’m weaving some different ideas to sort of get to this question. You know, what what was it within you that um gave you the courage to step away from quote-unquote success to plan an inner city multi-ethnic congregation?
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, that’s a real insightful uh question and understanding about what it would take for someone like me to do that and and others.
Narrator: Of course, I’m not the only one, but
Derek Vreeland: Uh it yeah, definitely. Um, you know, I think about two things. One, you mentioned one of these words, but courage, but basically faith, courage, and sacrifice, that has actually become kind of our family’s motto over the years. Uh, not because we sat down and said, hey, let’s let’s create a family motto, you know. My daughters have it tattooed on their wrists. It’s basically how I have lived my life and and my wife and I um collectively is just be people of faith, courage, and sacrifice. Now that those values, if you will, of course, biblical, rooted in Christ himself, and really going back to Abram and others in the Old Testament. as well as the new you think about core fundamental values of the heroes of the faith, men and women, they were people of faith, they were people of courage, they were people of sacrifice. And And so yeah, that that spirit not only is a biblical rooted in Christ, of course, but Keith Green embodied that as well. He was bold, he was courageous, he was sacrificial, he too left a successful music career. uh and could have been something very special. And he sings about that. You know, I had everything in the world, but it was nothing compared to Christ. And he walked away from found that joy just in in doing what he did. So I think about the song, for instance, that uh one of his uh songs, Make My Life a Prayer to You. Yes. That that song um was highly formative to me. In fact I’m not typically one to get on my knees and and spend an hour in prayer. Uh it’s just my not I I have adult ADHD, etc. Um, that’s just not my way of communicating with God, uh, although of course I do pray and I’m conversationally throughout the day, yes. But I’ve always rooted my life, my prayer is my life, giving you my life. And of course, I am I feel on most days, Derek, like the Apostle Paul. I am the most wretched man. Um, you know, there there’s no I am the chief among sinners. I st I still feel that and not just saying that like a humble no I really feel that but uh the God’s grace his mercy his forgiveness just getting up keep going Don’t quit on yourself, don’t quit on God. Uh the the grace and mercy that I extend so freely to others. Sometimes I’ve had to lean on that and The hardest person to forgive him myself, right? So all to say faith, courage, and sacrifice, Old and New Testament, and brought it in Christ, Keith Live that way. He too uh left success. And then I think about a guy like Steve Camp in those years. I was 1981 to 83 really being formed by this and even beyond. But Steve Camp had a song uh called Living Dangerously in the Hands of God. And that that song too was very formative for me. And that’s kind of the courage it took. I am gonna roll the dice. I’m going to leave everything familiar after 18 years in predominantly white evangelical, et cetera, spaces, and even in the last eight years in a extremely mega church. To go to the inner city, we had no we didn’t have any money, we didn’t have any backing. I had three months severance. I had you know four kids, a mortgage, uh and all that, and just literally roll the dice from a world’s perspective. But my wife and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is what God was calling us to do. And and just again, that faith that it’s kind of like in the Bible, Jesus, Paul. I gotta go. I mean what can I do? You know, like I I gotta do it. I gotta I I gotta go and and even in that I I think about a guy like Keith Green too, who I’m sure is sitting here just knowing him through his music and But, you know, it’s like I I’m not qualified to do anything I’ve done. I I’m just called. And we communicate that to our church all the time. Um the we who are pastors uh you know, understand that like I am not qualified to be uh a looked up to or champ, you know, like a The model of the faith. In fact, I say that early in the book. Hey, don’t look at me like I’m God’s gift of peacemaking. I’m still on a journey myself, and I’m an Italian Russian Jew, and I can lose my temper just with the best of them. But you know, I’m I’m on a journey and and we tell our people it’s not that I’m qual, you know, I’m not qualified. We aren’t as but we’re called and we’re just trying to work this thing out to to follow the calling of God on our lives. And and bears Paul says this treasure in earth and vessels and jars of clay and uh and all that. So all to say, yeah Um faith, courage, and sacrifice, make my life a prayer to you, living dangerously in the hands of God, and then you know, just again in the world’s term, rolling the dice. I’d rather die chasing the dream of Christ than live comfortably chasing my own. And um, and that’s kind of what led us led us off on the journey.
Narrator: Amen. Yeah, what a great journey. And so I can see how the prayer of Saint Francis would fit so well just within your congregation. um to form this multi-ethnic um congregation of people that come from different cultural backgrounds, I’m assuming different socioeconomic backgrounds. to to bring them together. So uh the book, and again I’m I’m a fan of the prayer of Saint Francis. I I pray it as a part of of morning prayer nearly every day. And it is a prayer that wasn’t penned by Saint Francis, rather, we don’t know exactly who wrote it, but it was attributed to Saint Francis. But it is a prayer about peacemaking And so you do open the book acknowledging the problems that we have in the church. in terms of our reputation. The church is known not for peacemaking. The church is known for who we’re against who we hate. And it does seem like culturally the church has um a reputation problem. We’re known as judgmental, we’re known for hypocrisy. And do you think that that that loss of trust that we have with the greater culture, um, do you think it’s uh affected the church’s ability to speak? into the arena of of divisions, social, racial, poliz political divisions that we see today
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, 100% in the first chapter, as you know, you know, I’m uh it’s that don’t just take my word for it, so to speak. These are uh research and barna research and statistics and And that are essentially mined after or be uh that led into the He Gets Us campaign. But yeah, uh in in a nutshell, the vast majority of Americans, adult Americans today have a favorable view of Jesus. Uh they believe his he was empathetic, his teaching is good for society as a whole, he lived an exemplary life, uh, but that sp virtually that same majority, uh, which uh you know uh they they don’t like Christians, they don’t like Christianity, and they don’t like the church. And in a nutshell, they they see a disconnect from the Jesus they otherwise uh believe lived 2,000 years ago, uh they otherwise like uh there’s a disconnect between him and his followers. There’s a disconnect be from between him and the church. And and this of course, this gap, this this has led to the distrust, the the lack of credibility that we have. In fact, statistics show that actually when you speak as a Christian and then try to engage the world at what uh Barner called the bridge of Christ divinity, it actually today turns people off. In the twentieth century You could use words, you could use logic, apologetics. Um, but in the 21st century you have to start at the bridge of Christ’s humanity, that is meeting apathetic needs, engaging the poor, engaging the immigrant. uh addressing food insecurity or at-risk kids or the opioid addict or the unsheltered. And and these are the works that build the credibility of people in the twenty first century. different than in the 20th century. Now there’s always been good works in in Christianity, hospitals, of course, but we’re in a moment. It is a Matthew 5, 16th century. And so rather than engage to to to to you know, overcome the challenge that we have of this disconnect between how people see Jesus, church, Christianity, Christians, this again is what makes that prayer such a a an important moment. Like people are asking, do I speak? Do I not speak? What do I do? How do I engage? Well this prayer Uh it gives us the aspirational desires. You know the whole point of the book or or in a sense the prayer is amazing, of course. Uh and again, anonymously written 1912 in in in France, but If you will, the anonymous author gives us aspirational goals, like make me an where there is hatred, let me so love. Where there is injury, part. And we see all of that around us. But the author, of course, it’s a poem, a prayer. He or she did not tell us how to do that. How do you sow love into hatred? How do you extend uh, you know Pardon where there’s injury or offense, or how do you uh you know remove peace-disturbing factors from peop people’s lives? And so, of course, that’s what the book is, taking these different lines. uh and and and then trying to flesh out okay in our context in this moment 21st century how can we do these things so love into hatred, uh pardon into injury, faith into doubt. How can we do that at an individual level that has a butterfly effect, if you will, and can right help to uh um you know change the way people look at Christians the church, Christianity, ultimately to point them to Jesus.
Narrator: Hey friends, I want to pause this episode for just a moment to let you know that Resurrection, eight lessons on how God restores us, the third And final book in the God in the Neighborhood Bible study series is out now. Go to the show notes for ordering information. Right. And throughout the book, you know, building upon and and working from the prayer of Saint Francis. Um, you you get the principles, you know, that that any congregation and indie any individual can put into practice. You share some of the stories of what your congregation has done. in terms of peacemaking. Um, but I guess that was gonna that will look different in different congregations. I mean in other words, what peacemaking looks like in central Arkansas is gonna look different than peacemaking, let’s say, in Boston, Massachusetts. And so I think it’s important for for for people in the pews as well as pastors and leaders. um to take what Jesus is teaching us be formed in things like prayers, the prayer of Saint Francis. But then we need the help from the Holy Spirit to know, okay, now how do we actually do those things in our context But the goal really is peace. It really is. And when I think of peace, so our podcast Peaceable and Kind, I like to think of peace in terms of the Hebrew concept of shalom, of of well being and and flourishing. And in the book you define peace um as reconciliation and harmony and wholeness, that’s sort of speaking of that shalom peace. Um, that’s marked by love and justice. Why is it important if we are going to go about the work in this Matthew 5, 16th century of of making peace, why is it important to hold love and justice together?
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, that’s so important. Uh uh such an important concept. And uh, you know, I talk about uh well we spell it Shar Shalom, you could spell it Sarsalom, but this is the anointed one of Isaiah’s chapter 61. And when you read Isaiah 61, as I did in the second chapter, um, where you have this prophetic uh uh pointing ahead to the coming anointed one, to the coming Christ, the Messiah. And and when you read uh all of that, I imagine that the anonymous author was reading Isaiah 61 because of these oppositional statements. uh that are in the prayer as well as in Isaiah sixty one. I can’t prove that, but I that’s what I imagine. Where would you get the theology behind this prayer And I I imagine it’s this Isaiah 61. And in that, to your point, it’s not just about love, it’s about justice, it’s overturning uh uh righteousness. The SARS alone. is someone it’s it’s it’s a prince of peace, if you will. And that prince of peace is the one coming to remove peace disturbing factors from people’s lives or peace disturbing factors from society. And that involves justice and and equity and and and all that. And so one of the criticisms of no and by the way, uh in chapter two as well Then of course in Luke 4, Jesus stands up, reads the scroll, goes, I’m that guy. So like we know, like Jesus he identifies. He I am that that person. And then Of course, we then are little A anointed ones. We are little C Christs. We are um little P peacemakers, where he’s the capital P, the capital C, the capital S Savior, if you will, and we are to walk in that anointing as Christians. That’s what it means. We’re little messiahs, if you will, of course, not the capital M Messiah and all that, but we’re to walk in that anointing. And again, back to Isaiah 61, it’s a it’s love and justice. It’s not just you know, heavenly minded but no earthly good. And particularly in the twenty first century, uh, both for individual Christ followers as well as the church Um the the message of this idea that uh as everything I I’m sure and I was there in the twentieth century and and young the whole there was such a movement and even still today to get the gospel to the whole world and the idea to see every soul saved. And it’d be it and yes, I I want to do that. I’m all about that. Of course. This is what it’s about. A credible gospel. so that others can come to know Christ and and and the Father as we do through salvation by grace through faith alone. But having said that, it became so uh driven in a mission mission sense that it was all about getting people into heaven. Right. If you will. And you know, we used to joke in the 80s, how many notches on your Bible do you have? Because I’ve led so many people to Jesus. And and that was all well-meaning and is still well-meaning. But it had an unintended consequence because it began to lean so heavily towards the salvation of souls. that it it began to move away from the salvation if you will the sh the saloon of the city or of your community and that peace. And that that also contributed to to this. It’s the same thing in the uh homogeneous church I mean that in the 20th century is all about planning, growing, and developing churches focused on a single people group, which was a confusion with the principle in evangelism. But having said that Well meaning. Let’s see people saved. Let’s get them into the church. Get them discipled and their lives to to to be meaningful. And okay, yes, great. But, you know, twenty, thirty, forty years later, the unintended consequence was huge churches around this country that are systemically segregated in an increasingly diverse painfully polarized cynical society so that the very message of God’s love for all people is not believable anymore. It’s lost its credibility. So these things come out of well-meaning I I’m a s well-meaning hearts and well-meaning drives, but then you know it the it kind of gets pulled to one side and you lose that balance. So Christ himself said eternal life and abundant life. Right? This is what it’s all about. He came to bring eternal life. and to bring abundant life. And I look at those as to what you to your point, if you want to think about that, love and justice. Love is the eternal life, justice is the abundant life. And I think In our day, for the sake of the gospel, we have to recover that balance that is very biblical. It’s all about the life of Christ. Uh and I mean just simple things. He’s feeding people. There’s times he’s feeding people and he’s not saying he’s not saying hey if you died tonight, would you go to heaven? He’s just giving you food. Right. So the point is that’s it’s a balanced attack, not a lopsided attack.
Narrator: Yeah.
Derek Vreeland: It became lopsided, not because of I’m sure bad people, but But when you’re not thoughtful about this and that’s what the Metavisicar did, you know, and Metavizakar understood their moment and knew what was right for Israel to do and We have to understand our moment. And they made a course correction, right? They they’re able to call timeout. Let’s think deeply about the moment. Let’s reflect on the past. see where we are and position this nation for the future. And that’s essentially what you know a book like this, a prayer like that, this moment calls us to. And and to your point, uh to bring that balance because as we engage people at the Bridge of Christ humanity It makes them more receptive to the message that we want to ultimately share, which is uh at the Bridge of Christ Divinity
Narrator: So important, and I love how you describe love as eternal life, justice as that abundant life. Because I’ve done most of my pastoral work within white evangelical spaces, post-evangelical spaces, where people will say, ooh, justice, that that that sounds like a a a bad word because they associate it either with a political agenda and platform or they associate it with more progressive Christianity. And what I’ve tried to do through my writing and pastoring and teaching is no justice is a biblical word. Justice belongs to the people of God. And so I’m stealing that from you, Mark, that love and justice go hand in hand because it speaks of that eternal life and abundant life. I see a lot of Christians um, you know, when they they see injustices in the world, in their neighborhoods, in their communities. I see Christians a lot of time have a lot of lot of fear. Um they they they see the hate and they see the division. But they’re just sort of frozen in fear. Um, what fears do you think Christians need to really confront if they are going to become true peacemakers in a in a divided culture?
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, such a deep question. I actually just uh worked with EFCA uh megachurch pastors on this very subject and and was at a conference recently uh talking and writing about this. Uh it’s so deep. Let me just give you one thing. So yes, there’s fear. There’s fear of loss of friendships, of being canceled, uh I don’t know what to say.
Narrator: Um uh you know, whether it’s politics or j okay.
Derek Vreeland: So yes, we all know that that that fear and that’s that’s kinda holding us back and you see how different people react. Some people just rush in bold. They’re gonna say something. They don’t care. They’re just gonna, you know, if you will force it down your throat and and and take the consequence. Other people step back and they’re not gonna get involved. And and so you see these extremes in in the population itself as well as with Christians. But uh among other things, um I’ve reflected a lot recently, and I generally spoke to this in one part of the book. Um, what drives all that? What drives that confusion? One of the things is a phrase: silence is complicity. And that phrase has really been around for at least fifteen years, I mean kind of at the forefront. And you hear people, you know, a and there’s this presumption that silence Is complicity and that’s a dogmatic statement. Now none of us want to be complicit and evil or whatever. So then it forces us to say thing. Also, as I already mentioned with Matthew 5. 16, um, saying something means with words. It means with social media or texting or or your You know, uh posting on X or Facebook or Instagram, whatever. So there are many ways to speak, and words are one of them. To make that statement, that requires nuance. Same thing with simp uh silence as complicity. It’s driving a lot of of this angst because it’s presumed to be true. But I stepped back from that recently because I go, I don’t like that phrase. And it took me a while to figure out why don’t I like that phrase? Well again, number one, there are many ways to speak and words are one of them. So I didn’t like that on the silence thing because just because I don’t say something with my words doesn’t mean I’m silent because actions speak louder than words and things like But the silence is complicity. What I realize is silence can be complicity. Right? So on one of my teaching slides, I have silence is complicity, is a struck through. And then it says can be complicity. So that’s true. Silence can be complicity. Is it true that silence is always complicity? No, it is not true. It can be But it’s not always because Solomon calls silence wisdom, and James essentially uh defines it as moral discipline. Right? In in James chapter two, be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger. And that’s a moral discipline. So I find in my own life I want to speak out. Boy, I have opinions on everything from politics to And and and and is sometimes it is so difficult to restrain myself to exercise moral discipline or wisdom because as a pastor Uh I’m not a politician. I’m not an educator in the sense of working at a university. Like it’s like stay in my lane because even actors, right? You see actors and actresses and they They’re they’re maybe they’re great on camera, but then all of a sudden they’re telling you how to how to how to do politics, like you know, or like and and they get yeah, so I I wanna I wanna chase the fruit of long obedience in the same direction. Yes. I I and and I know that what my lane is, and I want to stay in that, and I don’t want to be persuaded um by fear or, you know, on the one side into to silence. On the other hand, from just blurting out on everything from the Super Bowl, uh, you know, uh what’s going on at the Super Bowl or to a war that I don’t fully understand or Uh you know, and and this is what we’ve we’ve gotten so polarized, and I do think a phrase like silence is complicity It it it just people say, well, I guess that’s true. I can’t be silent, I’m gonna be complicit. So I think thinking deeply about these things can help us overcome the fear. Applying the prayer of St. Francis can help us uh know what to do and again realize that this there are many ways to speak and not be complicit. Right. And words are one of those, but so are actions. And and And and all that. And I find too that when our church in twenty-five years we’ve only spoken, if you will, uh, in what the world would call speaking out on uh an issue of justice or politics or whatever. There’s only been three times in twenty-five years that we’ve done that. And most recently, um uh I don’t remember exactly what it was, but one was recent. And we got so many um affirmations from people on both sides of the aisle, if you will. But but really what it told me, Derek, is people listened. You know, I I get to think about why did we get such a reaction and positive? It was a very nuanced thought People on the left, people on the right. But it’s because we don’t we hardly ever speak. We just do the work.
Narrator: Yeah.
Derek Vreeland: But when we do speak People listen because we’re not blurting out on every single issue that comes along. The day, every single day we can all, and and people are feeling that pressure, and pastors particularly. And I’m like, don’t allow that pressure. It can be complicity, but practice wisdom, practice moral discipline, and discern that you talked about earlier. Uh, I think the why and the how for us in peacemaking and all of this is the same, but the what, like you said, at the context in Boston, in Little Rock, in Columbia, Missouri, wherever you are, what you do to advance peace as your collective group as a church. your neighborhood, your your individual life. Yes, the what is contextual, but the why and the how is the same. That’s right. Essentially for us all. So I I I’ll just finish that thought with this. I see if you want to put it in the context of peacemaking or courageous Christianity today is m identifying with Christ in peacemaking, which basically means remembering that he died with his arms outstretched. And if you want to think about it symbolically, he didn’t let go of the right hand, the Republicans, if you will. to appease the left hand, the Democrats, nor did he let go of the left hand, the Democrats, to appease the Republicans. And you can apply that to everything. Rich, poor, men, women, black, white. He holds everyone in tension and the tension is actually where the unity is. So most pastors are trying to alleviate the tension for people. No, you want to get people comfortable with that tension. where we practice what Paul talks about in Philippians chapter two. Do not merely think about your own personal interest. And that applies not only to the individual, but more exegetically sound. to the collective group. He’s basically saying white people in a diverse church can’t just think about white interests. You got to think about blacks and Asians. Black people, you can’t just think about your interests. And and this is and he gives us Christ as the model who leveraged his power, position, and privilege to push us up the hill, not lord it over us and keep us down. So all to say I think th The prayer, that idea of Christ in your mind with his arms outstretched, living in the tension is actually where the unity is and the peace is to be found. And getting comfortable with that and then this the idea of when do I speak with words? When do I speak with action? Um I don’t want to be complicit, but I do want to be a wise person and I do want to be a morally disciplined person. And I think that, you know, again, thinking uh with nuance uh can help us uh to navigate these times and particularly how we interact. Uh what those about hey I can’t change uh you know we’re covering right now. I can’t change the president’s mind. I don’t even know what’s going on. I I can’t change the universe either. But you know what? There’s a person in my life, there’s an aunt, there’s a friend, there’s a And and I can have impact on that person’s life when I walk in the uh in the power of peacemaking identified with Christ Matthew 5-9.
Narrator: So good. There is a uh Bob Dylan line. Um silence can be like thunder I want to take to the road and plunder. And I have wrestled with that exact concept that silence is complicity. And I have personally wrestled with the fear. What if I don’t say something? There will be people that’ll be upset if I don’t say something. But I’ve uh I’ve heeded the wisdom from the Holy Spirit and from the blessed brother Bob that sometimes silence can be like thunder Well Mark, thank you for joining me for this conversation. It was far too short. There’s so much more goodness in this book. And so I want to encourage people go out and get a copy of Make Make me an instrument of your peace. It will help you. It will form you in the ways of peacemaking. And I feel, Mark, before uh we go, I just want to read the prayer ‘Cause some people may be unfamiliar with the prayer and you put it in the the very beginning of the book. I think you have it in uh the original French and you have it in English and so here’s the prayer for those who are not familiar with it. Lord make me an instrument of your peace. Where there is hatred, let me so love. Where there is injury, pardon, where there is doubt, faith, where there is despair, hope, where there is darkness, light. where there is sadness, joy. O divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be love as to love, for it is in giving that we receive, it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life And if people want to know what it means to live out that prayer, I encourage them to get your book. Mark, thanks again for joining me. I love this conversation.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, Derek, thanks so much for having me and for being an endorser on the book. It really means a lot.
Narrator: You are so welcome. Well, that’s all that we have for you today. Thank you for joining me for this insightful Full conversation, go in peace and be kind.
This transcript was generated with AI and may contain errors.