Show Notes
Peaceable and Kind host Derek Vreeland dives into the disagreement between his peacemaker’s heart developed in his pastoral life with the media representation of hyper-violent masculinity that is hoisted upon the men of today. He shares how he reconciles those disparate identities and ideals within his faith. He also answers the question “Are you sure Jesus came to bring peace?”
Books mentioned in this episode:
Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation by Kristin Du Mez
Man Enough: How Jesus Redefines Manhoodby Nate Pile
Scripture verses mentioned in this episode:
Isaiah 2:2-4
Isaiah 9:6-7
Zechariah 9:9-10
Matthew 10:34-39
Matthew 10:32-33
Luke 14:25-33
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Transcript
Narrator: Welcome to Peaceable and Kind, the podcast where we explore the transformative power of living out Jesus’ call to peace and kindness in our everyday lives. Each week your host, Derek Vreeland, will delve into the stories, scriptures, and practical steps that help us embody these essential Christian virtues. Join us as we talk with inspiring guests, reflect on Scripture, and discover ways to bring peace and kindness into our homes, communities, and the world. Whether you’re seeking encouragement, guidance, or a deeper understanding of your faith, Peaceable and Kind is here to support and uplift you on your spiritual journey Let’s embark together on this path of grace, compassion, and love, living out the true essence of our faith. Thank you for tuning in, and may the peace of God be with you always
Derek Vreeland: Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceable and Kind Podcast. Glad you’re with me on this one. Last episode, we talked about politics. And if that still has you thinking, let me know what you think. Let me know how you engage politically As a follower of Jesus. You can always hit me up on social media. I am at Derek Vreeland on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. You can leave a comment or a review on whatever platform you’re listening to this podcast. All of that is appreciated. And if you haven’t get subscribed We continue to produce content for you and the best way to get that content and to know when we’re releasing a new episode is to subscribe. And because we’re in this crazy political election season again, I heard someone once say that it’s an every four-year descent into madness But because we’re in a political season, and the last episode was on politics, think about someone you know in your life who would benefit from content like this It’s my goal to produce good quality Christian content that is using scripture, that’s thinking about church life. In a way that promotes peace and kindness. And so if there is someone in your life, maybe there’s someone who’s gotten really cynical Whether they’re cynical about politics or they’re cynical about the church or they’re cynical about Christianity in general, maybe, if you can think of someone like that, send them a link to the previous episode or this episode And say, okay, okay, I know that you’ve kind of given up on politics, you’ve given up on religion. Maybe you can listen to something new, something different. I would love if you did that Well, today we’re going to talk about peace making in the way of Jesus And I have to admit that I’ve always been a bit of a peacemaker at heart As a child, I always wanted people to get along. I just always wanted, like when I was in elementary school, I wanted everybody on the playground. to play together, to share, and to get along. Now I was raised on Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers, so perhaps it’s not a surprise. that peacemaking and kindness would be a deep value. As a child, I moved around a lot. My dad’s uh work. caused us to move just about every year until I was about in the fifth grade. And so I battled with a lot of insecurity. Because it felt like early on in my childhood I was always moving, which meant I was making new friends or trying to make new friends And I’ve always loved sports, but I’ve never been super athletic. And I was always trying to do that. I remember when we moved here, my hometown, Saint Joseph, Missouri, I was in the fifth grade And I remember going out to recess and they had this huge asphalt covered playground behind the school. It was the largest playground I had ever seen. And it had swings and it had slides, but in the middle they had painted a baseball diamond for playing kickball. Now in my other schools we had played wiffle ball, we always would play tag, but I’d never really played kickball before. But when I had moved and was in a new school, that was gonna be my opportunity. And I remember we had the one time we were gonna play kickball and we had the old school yard pick ‘em for teams, which I always hated that. I hated if I ever was a captain and had to pick people for teams Because you know what happened to me when I was in a new school and we were all lined up out there on the asphalt and there was two captains picking teams? Guess who was the last kid to get picked? That’s right. It was me. I was the new kid. I was tall and skinny and kinda gangly looking and uh yeah, and not very athletic. Actually I remember the first time we played kickball and I had never done it before. And a part of my lack of athleticism is that I have really bad hand-to-eye coordination. And on the kickball field, I learned that I have really poor eye-foot coordination. And uh I remember getting teas, but then I remember we’re playing, you know, there’s no adults, it’s just kids playing. And someone would be sprinting for home plate, which is actually just a painted yellow square on the asphalt, and they’d throw the ball and the person running would argue with the person who threw the ball whether they were out or not. Do you remember that? Do you remember playing games like that as a kid and arguing about the rules? And I remember one time uh an argument broke out because someone threw the ball. I got you, you’re out and the guy running, No, I hit home first and they start arguing. My impulse when they were arguing was to step in and to try to make peace. I’ve always been like that. I’ve always been the guy who wants to bring people together in order to make peace. As a teenager, I grew up on all of the action movies of the eighties and into the nineties. You know, all the Stallone and Schwarzenegger action movies. I’m thinking about Kurt Russell and Val Kenelmer as Wyatt Earp and Doc Holiday and Tombstone. I love that movie. Umya Huckleberry. If you seen Tombstone, you know you can quote all those lines. I grew up with those those hyper violent images of masculinity. And so even though I had a a a a a peacemaker’s heart I grew up thinking, well, this is what it looks like uh to be a man, right? Is you take charge and you take out the bad guy. Uh violent masculinity, particularly the kind that’s described in Kristen Dumay’s Jesus and John Wayne, filled my imagination. By the way, if you didn’t have a chance to read uh Dumay’s book, Jesus and John Wayne, highly, highly recommend that. But if you have read the book, you know what I’m talking about. The description she gives of the kind of rugged cowboy John Wayne image of masculinity was imprinted on me, and there was a bit of a disagreement between my heart and my mind. There was a little bit of tension because I’d always been a peacemaker at heart, but in my mind I saw these images of fighters and people who were strong and would would dominate. And I would say as I became a Christian, I was baptized when I was 11. At 15 years old, I began to take my faith seriously. By 16 years old, I I felt called to be a pastor. And so I’ve been invested in church life since a teenager. And yes, there there there’s times that I have flirted with this kind of hyper-violent vision of of masculinity. even though it wasn’t ever truly who I was. I mean, I love sports. I still love sports. I am highly competitive. uh in raising three boys, I’ve always taught them you play to win the game. And uh, you know, there is no take it easy on your kids, maybe they can beat dad. Oh no, if you you play to win the game. I remember teaching my oldest how to play chess when he was probably seven, eight, nine years old. And um now I wouldn’t try to beat him in four or five moves. Unless he pulled that bishop out, exposing his king, play chess, you know that move. Uh but I wouldn’t let him win either. And one time my brother in law was visiting from out of town. He was watching me and my oldest uh play chess and and my oldest was just learning. And I had beat him, I don’t know, it the the game we we played for a good ten, twelve minutes, so it wasn’t a quick win. Um and I even would warn him. He’d he’d touch a piece and I’d be like, Are you sure you want to move that piece? Yeah, Jadaboo in this piece. And I would beat him and one time we were playing and my brother in law witnessed this. We were playing in chess and he lost and he got so mad. And my wife was always, take it easy on the kids. Take it. I’m like, take it easy on the kids. You play to win the game. So I’ve always been competitive like that, and I think perhaps without Jesus, I would have probably gone the way of being that competitive jerk that nobody wanted to play games with. But Jesus came into my life. And because I have devoted my entire life To following Jesus, to studying the Bible, to serving the church, Jesus has changed my view on just about everything And as I have pursued Jesus, I have recognized that Jesus demonstrates a kind of strength and courage We could even call it a masculine strength and courage that was expressed not in domination, but in mercy and self-giving love. Jesus demonstrates through human strength, and if you want to call it masculine strength, that’s fine. Jesus was a man after all. But Jesus demonstrates that strength and courage not by killing his enemies, but by being killed Jesus demonstrated for me as a man what it means to be a Christian man ultimately by his sacrifice By dying on the cross for my sins and for your sin. To me, the cross of Christ is the pinnacle Of who Jesus is, and ultimately who God is. And Jesus on the cross shows us what has been for 2,000 years a Christian virtue Jesus shows us meekness. Meekness is not weakness. Meekness is not A person who lacks power, but meekness is power that is constrained. Jesus in the Beatitude said, Blessed are the meek For they shall inherit the earth. In my Christian journey, I came to see that Jesus shows the way for both men and women Jesus shows the way how to live fully alive. Jesus didn’t come to make men more masculine and women more feminine. Jesus came to make us fully alive. This is a an idea that I picked up from Nate Pyle in his 2015 book, Man Enough. If you’re interested in Christian masculinity, I recommend that book. So Jesus comes to show us, both men and women, how to live. And we are striving as followers of Jesus to be like Jesus and to live in the ways Jesus lived This is the ultimate goal of the Christian faith in our pursuit of Jesus. We have accepted Christ We’ve been baptized, we’re rooted in Christ. Paul talks about that in Colossians chapter two. We receive Christ, we’re rooted in Christ, so that ultimately we can become like Christ. One of the most popular Bible verses in the New Testament is Romans 8. 28, which says, We know that all things work together for good. for those who love God who are called according to his purpose. So people will ask, well, what is that purpose? If God’s working everything together for the good for those who love God and are called according to his purpose, what is that purpose? Well, the next verse, verse 29, gives you that purpose. For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined, meaning God had a plan from the beginning to be conformed to the image of his Son So our ultimate goal, the ultimate purpose is to become like Jesus. To be like Jesus in his character and nature. And to do the things that Jesus did. And I believe Jesus came to bring peace This was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies. And there’s a number of places in the Old Testament we could look at. Let me just share a couple of passages That forecast that the coming Messiah, the coming Christ, would bring peace. First, Isaiah chapter 2, and I’ll start reading in verse 2. Isaiah 2 says, In days to come, the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be raised above the hills. All the nations shall stream to it. Many people shall come and say, Come, let us go to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob that he may teach us his ways, and that we may walk in his paths Paul in Romans chapter 8 is echoing some of that, right? That our purpose is to be conformed into the image of God’s own Son. Isaiah, five-six hundred years before Jesus, is prophesying a time when all peoples, all nations, Jews and Gentiles, will come to the mountain of the Lord to the house of God to learn his ways and to walk in his paths. Let’s pick it up verse 4, Isaiah 2, verse 4. He shall judge between the nations, and shall arbitrate for many peoples They shall beat their swords into plough shares, and their spears into pruning hooks Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore So Isaiah is speaking of a time when God’s king, the Messiah, will come and all the nations will come to the mountain of God to learn God’s ways and learn war no more. And a few chapters later in Isaiah chapter 9, Isaiah speaks of a child who will be born. These are verses we hear around Advent and Christmas time. But Isaiah in chapter 9 is saying there’s one coming, a child’s going to be born, and he’s going to be Messiah, the king, the ruler of Israel. Isaiah chapter 9, starting at verse 6, For a child has been born for us, a son given to us. Authority rests upon his shoulders, and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His authority shall grow continually, and there shall be endless peace for the throne of David and his kingdom. He will establish and uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this. Of course, you will recognize that verse around Christmas time. Jesus is our wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace. He’s the child who has been born for us And Isaiah says that his kingdom will grow, his authority will grow, and there will be endless peace. Speaking of Christmas verses, how about Zechariah chapter 9 in the Old Testament? Zechariah 9, starting in verse 9. Rejoice greatly, O daughter Zion. Shout aloud, O daughter Jerusalem, lo your king, that is the Messiah, or Christ Your king comes to you, triumphant and victorious as he, humble and riding on a donkey on a colt, the foal of a donkey. He will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the war horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off and he shall command peace to the nations. His dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth So Isaiah chapter 9 is a Christmas verse, but Zechariah 9, verses 9 and 10, these are verses from the season of Lent. This is Palm Sunday Jesus entered into the holy city of Jerusalem before his crucifixion and death, and he was riding not on a war horse, but a donkey. And Zechariah said, When the king comes, he will command peace to the nations Jesus came in fulfillment of all of these prophecies and so many more in the Old Testament, and this is why he proclaimed, Blessed are the peacemakers. Because as the Old Testament spoke of the coming Messiah, Jesus came proclaiming peace. Establishing peace, and there was a promise that peace would spread to all of the nations So Jesus embodied and taught peacemaking. He said, Blessed are the peacemakers. Jesus taught this radical ethic of enemy love and forgiveness. And it’s interesting, whenever I start talking along these lines, inevitably someone will ask me, are you sure That Jesus really came to bring peace. Because isn’t there a verse where Jesus says, don’t think I came to bring peace? Let’s talk about it. The verse being referenced is Matthew 10, and it starts with verse 34. Let me read just a few verses and then I’ll have some comments. But this is Matthew 10, 34, Jesus speaking. Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter in law against her mother in law, and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household. Whoever loves father and mother more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me And whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Then Jesus says Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. So people will point to that passage, particularly Matthew 10, 34, and say, yeah, did Jesus really come to to to create a whole community of peacemakers. I mean he said he didn’t come to bring peace. Well, if we want to understand what Jesus said of Matthew ten thirty four, we do have to read it in context. And here’s a little tip for Bible study for you. If you’re trying to understand the meaning of one verse, look at the verses ahead of it, the verses after it, read it in context. And here is what Jesus says, Matthew 10, verses 32 and 33, the two verses before Matthew 10, 34, Jesus says. Every one therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in Heaven. But whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in Heaven. Jesus here is describing those people who want to be followers of Jesus, but who are a little bit embarrassed. to tell family members that because they’re afraid to be kicked out by their family, disowned by their family, and so by their silence, they’re denying Jesus among their family Jesus here is using Jewish hyperbole. He is exaggerating When he says, Do not think that I have come to bring peace, but I have come to bring a sword, he’s not speaking literally, but he’s talking about the sword of division that happens in relationships Where some people go the Jesus way and some people go the way of the world. Jesus is challenging people because as as he goes on, verse thirty four is the statement, I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. But then as I read a moment ago, a few verses down below, verse thirty seven, Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me Jesus is challenging the idolatry of the family. And he is saying, in an exaggerated sense, hey, don’t think that this is going to be easy. Don’t think that I’ve come to bring peace. There’s going to be division in your family if you choose to deny me before your family And Jesus has done this in other places as well. Think about Luke 14, where Jesus in verse 26 says very provocatively, Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, cannot be my disciple Now, is Jesus literally teaching us to hate mom and dad? Is Jesus influencing us and encouraging us to break one of the Ten Commandments? Of course not. Again, this is another example of Jewish hyperbole. This is Jesus again challenging the idolatry of the family. Did Jesus come to bring peace? Well, according to Isaiah and Zechariah and many places throughout his teaching, Jesus did come to bring peace, and when he says, I did not come to bring peace but a sword, he is speaking in exaggeration using a metaphor, challenging people to be willing to accept the ridicule and even division that would come from family members who choose not to go the Jesus way So I don’t think we can use one verse, Matthew 10, 34, to dismiss everything else, Jesus. and the Old Testament says about the peaceable nature of the kingdom of God. Well I hope that clears some things up. I hope that that perhaps challenges you to reframe your reading of Matthew ten, thirty-four. And that is all that we have for today. Thank you so much for listening. Go in peace And be kind
This transcript was generated with AI and may contain errors.