Show Notes
Peaceable and Kind host Derek Vreeland is joined by his friend Tommy Brown. Tommy is the Pastor for Spiritual and Community Formation at Generations United Church in Niceville, Florida and an author of several books, including _The Ache for Meaning._In this conversation, Derek and Tommy talk about pastoring people during a divisive time, how the church can ‘fight like family,’ and why the temptation of Jesus reveals three fundamental human questions.
The book mentioned in this episode:
The Ache for Meaningby Tommy Brown
Scripture verses mentioned in this episode:
1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
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Transcript
Narrator: Welcome to Peaceable and Kind, the podcast where we explore the transformative power of living out Jesus’ call to peace and kindness in our everyday lives. Each week your host, Derek Vreeland, will delve into the stories, scriptures, and practical steps that help us embody these essential Christian virtues. Join us as we talk with inspiring guests, reflect on Scripture, and discover ways to bring peace and kindness into our homes, communities, and the world. Whether you’re seeking encouragement, guidance, or a deeper understanding of your faith, Peaceable and Kind is here to support and uplift you on your spiritual journey Let’s embark together on this path of grace, compassion, and love, living out the true essence of our faith. Thank you for tuning in, and may the peace of God be with you always
Derek Vreeland: By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone
Tommy Brown: Welcome back to another episode. So glad you made time for this podcast episode. And I want to say thank you to all the people who have reached out with your comments, your encouragement. If you know anyone who needs good Christian content like this, make sure you spread the word. Make sure people are subscribing. But I’ve been enjoying this podcast so far. And today This episode I’m looking forward to because this is going to be an interview with my friend Tommy Brown. Tommy Brown is pastor for spiritual formation at Generations United Church. in Niceville, Florida that could be God’s country. Let me tell you a little bit about Tommy before we start our conversation. He has a BA in pastoral ministry, master’s degrees in divinity and management. He’s an author. His latest book, The Ache for Meaning, is out now. I hope to have a little conversation with him about that book. And my man Tommy had a cheese stick for breakfast this morning. Tommy, welcome to the Peaceful and Kind Podcast.
Guest: Listen, I felt like all the things we talked about before we got on the air were confidential. So you added me on the cheese stick. I was feeling a little shaky and uh I needed some protein and when I need protein I go straight to the cheese sticks, you know, just like a four-year-old. But Derek, I’m stoked about your podcast. You know I like you. I like you just as a human being. I think you’re a good person. Uh, but I’m so excited that you’re doing this, man, and the fact that I get to be on here makes me two things. Two things come to mind. One, it makes me honored, and two, it makes me question your judgment. But I’m here for the conversation and happy to do it. So uh what are we talking about, man? What are we doing here?
Tommy Brown: Well, here on the Peaceable and Kind podcast, I want to have conversations about how scripture and Christian faith and be oriented in such a way that promotes peace and kindness And I don’t know if you feel that in your pastoral work, but it it feels to me like there’s this like growing anger, rage, and I want to have conversations.
Derek Vreeland: uh that produce peaceableness.
Guest: The fact that uh peaceableness and kindness aren’t just like baked into the fabric of Christian culture should be a an alarm because that’s you know, that’s who we are and what we do. But yeah, I mean the the the general consensus of things here in Niceville, Florida, where I uh pastor We have a great group of folks and I think that we’re we’re pretty good at getting along together. But um people are carrying a lot of heavy weights uh these days just from the conversations they’re having, the tensions they’re feeling in their family. We have an election coming up. And uh we all watch too much social media. So we’re stressed about things we don’t even need to be stressed about. We are quasi-omniscient. We know everything at the flick of a thumb. And all of these pixels that are just pervading our awareness all day, every day, and it all contributes to us just walking around, maybe a little tense. And so um Peaceableness, kindness, I think my man, if there were pills for that, goodness gracious, the stock in that pharma would go through the roof. But uh I think that we’re here to talk about how Christ brings about that. So I’m here for it.
Tommy Brown: Absolutely. Well, talk to me a little bit about your work as a pastor. I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but I’ve had too many conversations with church members that begin with, Well, I was on Facebook And then on and on it goes. I wonder have you seen because you mentioned, you know, that we are near omniscient. in that with a flick of the thumb we have access to all sorts of information. How is that forming or shaping or misshaping the people you pastor?
Guest: You know, I I’ll just tell you for me personally, uh, who is probably more aware of things I don’t need to be aware of than anybody. Uh it’s not making me a better listener, I can tell you that much. Uh whenever I’m sitting with humans with a device in my hand, uh it doesn’t help the conversation, doesn’t help the the richness and the texture of that conversation. Um and then I think it just it in in the people that I’m in conversations with, and it’s not just social media. Um But there there’s there’s just sometimes a lack of a lack of clarity, a lack of just being present uh to what’s happening, and um sometimes I think that I feel like we’re eating continually from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And so, um, too much knowledge of too much good Too much knowledge of too much evil is just too much knowledge, period. So I d I don’t need to have my eyes opened to more things. I need to be able to have my eyes on the things that are right in front of me. So I Derek, I I don’t get up in arms about a lot of the things that people are alarmed about. I was having a conversation the other day where somebody wanted to show me a video about something that was coming out of you know some major institute and they were alarmed and concerned about this and that and not only did it seem only like half the way factual but It’s just so many things are overblown right now. There was a day in our country to where somebody some major public figure could like die on the West Coast and if you lived on the East Coast, you might not know about it for weeks or even months Because you didn’t have information traveling that fast. And so um yeah, I’m I’m personally trying to live a little quieter, um, trying to mind my own business. trying to do better work and more focused work and I succeed uh rarely and on occasion but still I’m sort of stumbling forward toward that. So I love our people. Our people are are great. They’re imperfect just like anybody else. But We have this agreement that nobody’s perfect and that you’re going to be loved, accepted, and forgiven, whether you like it or not. We’re going to learn to fight well. I told our congregation on Sunday morning this past week. I said, if there are not people in this church that you uh do not get along with I mean there’s probably four hundred or something people in the room, right, just for context. I said, if there are people in this room that you don’t get along with, it’s just because you really haven’t gotten to know enough people yet. So there will be people you don’t get along with. What we have to do as a family is learn how to fight well and to forgive well and to make the arguments about things that matter and to get to the bottom of them so that we can move ahead even if we disagree. So we want to respect one another in our differences and we want to honor diversity in the healthiest sense of the word to where we say, you know what, not all of us are alike. And uh we’re a family, we’re in this, like it or not, you’re not leaving this church, you’re not gonna do it. You’re gonna be here and we’re gonna figure this out together, and we’re gonna sit side by side, and it’s gonna be awkward. It’s gonna be great and uh Christ is gonna be honored in that. So I I think we need better fights. I don’t think we need like this false harmony where nobody knows each other. We we need to fight well for the things that matter and uh get to the bottom of some things, like any family, any good, healthy family.
Tommy Brown: So what are some of the practices? I mean, how how do we how do we fight well in the body of Christ? Because I completely agree that there is an understanding of peaceableness where it’s like, well. You know, everyone’s okay, I’m okay, you’re okay. Let’s don’t ever talk about anything controversial, but that doesn’t get us anywhere. So what are some of the practices? What are some of the ways that we can fight well as the family of God? Tell the truth.
Guest: And when something bothers me with somebody, I s I say, Hey This is how this made me feel. When you did that, when you said that, whatever, this is how this made me feel. I have no problem with somebody coming up to me and saying, Tommy, uh, whatever you said this, it really bothered me. And sometimes I just say to them, I’m so sorry that bothered you. I still think what I think. You know, I love you and I hope that we can walk this out together. But Jesus is really clear. Whenever you have something with somebody, you go to them. You don’t bury it. Christians ought to be the the most unoffendable people in the world if they would simply take Jesus at his word. You have s you have a problem, you go to the person. That doesn’t work. You get somebody else who can help you mediate. That doesn’t work. You come before a body of elders and you say, Hey, we’re we just can’t figure this out, you know. Um, and uh, you know, one I had a friend that um she pastored a group of young adults. And sometimes one young adult would come to her and would complain about another young adult and then the other young adult would come come and complain. And she would send them into the same room, put on some worship music, turn off the lights, light a candle, and tell them not to come out for an hour And once they come out after the hour, then they can come and have the conversation with her. The majority of the time the conversation with the pastor never happened Because they realize the things that they were fighting about really they they’re not normally even what you’re fighting about. It’s the fact that you had a bad day, the fact that you’re worried about something. So yeah, so that’s I mean that’s a that’s a main thing. But um I don’t think that we have to have an opinion about everything, Derek. I think that that will solve a lot of our problems. Um You know, Paul says in uh 1 Thessalonians 4, 9 to 12, uh he says, make it your ambition to live quietly, mind your own business, and work with your hands. And so those three little things, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about them. And minding your own business, uh, it means two things. One, it means I have to mind my own business. I have I have I have a body of work that I’m given in my life. I have people, I have problems, I have situations. I live in a specific place and time And those are the things that ought to occupy my attention. Again, we go back to the social media thing. We spend so much time not paying attention to our business, but minding everybody else’s business. That that gets us all flustered and inhibits us from actually paying attention to and doing the work that we’re called to do. You’re familiar with Brother Lawrence? uh and how he made it his ambition just to practice the presence of God working in a soup kitchen or not soup kitchen but working in the kitchen in the monastery and minding his own business And practicing the presence of God there. So I think that that’s huge. Um that that you don’t have to say something all the time. I was in a conversation with a person with my wife the other day. And the person was saying something and making some political statements, and neither my wife nor I agreed with this person. However, based on the party line and based on the denominational beliefs and all of those things, um the ideologies, if you will, we were supposed to agree with that person. However, we didn’t, because the what they were doing was giving us something very flat, very big, very loud, and it lacked nuance And so many conversations lack the nuance necessary to actually engage real issues, real matters, and to have substantive conversations. So I I try and I try and say, okay, what are we really talking about here? And let’s have a conversation about that. And if we disagree, then we’re gonna have to work some things out together. But disagreement is not a reason to leave a church. That’s stupid. That’s infantile, and it’s not what families do. Problem is We have not had very good role models for the last couple of couple of decades as far as families go. And when things don’t work out, we leave. We opt out And so the body of Christ, the number one metaphor, as you know, is not church, it’s not body. The number one metaphor Paul uses, the scripture uses, is actually family. And in my family, we fight. We fight a lot, but we fight well and we love deeply and we forgive quickly.
Tommy Brown: I love that you set the end goal in processing through disagreements or hurt feelings or different opinions. The end goal is the family of God. Absolutely. It’s not so much about me, it’s not so much about you. It’s even not so much about the issue But we are a family. And I love that you set that up. Like, we’re the family. We’re gonna fight this out, but we’re gonna stay together. I’ve often said the same thing that disagreement is no reason to leave a church or a family. We are different people, different individuals, and I think the Holy Spirit can lead us in different ways. And we’re formed to have different opinions. But learning to listen and to respect one another and just recognize that at the end we’re still gonna be fans. At the end, we’re still going to be this this church family together.
Guest: Yeah, I I think that focusing on areas that we have in common rather than majoring on our differences. Um Creates the environment to where whenever you do have differences, you’re like, okay, but we agree on all these other things. I have a friend, he is Jewish, he’s a rabbi. He’s very wise. I love him. We’ve got a decade-long friendship under our belt now. And um we agree on a lot of things. We don’t agree on whether Jesus is the Messiah. I think Jesus isn’t a side, he doesn’t think Jesus isn’t a side. Okay. We share in common a major body of work all the Bible, all the Torah, all the First Testament, however you want to say it. And so man, we come together over that and we study and we love each other. And um I think going into an election, I think that that’s also important, is to say, okay, where do we agree? We disagree on a lot of things. You like this person, I like that person. Why? What’s beneath all of that? And uh whether or not we come to a consensus about who should be president, we can still agree that Jesus is the Lamb of God, centered on the throne, the king of kings, and I can sit by you in church and lift my hands, and so can you, and neither one of us has to brand the other a heretic or a hypocrite.
Tommy Brown: That would be a good day for me. That would be a really good day. And I love what you said a moment ago about not having to have an opinion about everything. Yeah. And it’s really freeing if people recognize that. Yeah. You do not have to have an opinion about everything happening in our world, in our city. Yeah. Even in our church. You may have opinions, but you don’t have to always share that. I was in a Bible study yesterday and there was a conversation about two churches in our city. that have been very publicly going after each other. Yeah. And they don’t like the way Each church is doing things, particularly in the public square and what they do and do not advocate for, but it’s very, very public. Right. Someone brought that up and they said, Well, what should we do? If we’re gonna pursue this pathway of being peacemakers, if we wanna bring reconciliation just in our city, just in the churches in our city what can we do? And the person then was looking at me, of course, I was in the Bible study, kind of looking at me, what are we, Pastor, uh, going to do? And my response is, I think the first thing we’re gonna do is be prayerful and be quiet. Yeah. Good. And the person who brought it up I don’t think was satisfied with that. So I let the group kind of have this conversation. Essentially what I was trying to say is we don’t have to have a public statement slash opinion about these two churches in our community that are fighting. That sometimes silence can be like thunder. Yeah, that’s right.
Guest: I don’t have to update my profile picture every time something bad happens. I don’t have to hashtag and virtue signal in order to tell you that I care about that. I can actually just shut the phone off and pray for a few minutes or call a friend and have a cup of coffee and Ask how they’re doing if this is something that that is is bothering them. I don’t have to to be loud. I think that there is something to be said uh for quiet witness in the world. And and that’s just going about your business in such a way that it pleases God and it wins the respect of outsiders. Again, back to that same passage. Paul says. Uh live quietly, mind your own business and work with your hands. And when you do, outsiders will take notice of this and you will live a life pleasing to God. I think, and I was talking with my friend Chris Green about this the other day. Chris said that we we often rail against culture and we often pay culture. with this um it almost like this brush and give them this persona that they have no sense. They don’t have the ability to discern good and evil and have no moral compass. But what Paul actually does for us is he says, when you live quietly, mind your own business and work with your hands, the world around you has the discernment to actually notice that these people are living a life That is good and virtuous, and then they will want to know what’s going on. We think that we have to go out and persuade people and convince people we would do as much good by just being decent hardworking, peaceable, Christ loving people sharing the gospel both in word and in deed, but not feeling like the the culture has no ability to notice these things and it’s all evil and we have to win it, you know, and everything else I think just doing good work, minding your own business, uh, keeping your head down, your shoes are off, your heart clean, loving your neighbor, that goes a long way. I don’t have to be loud. I don’t have to have an opinion about everything. There’s a time to speak up, and you’ll know that. The Holy Spirit will help you know that. But the Holy Spirit is not everybody else around me who’s demanding that I be outraged. And so that Hopefully our culture is moving a little bit beyond that. I think there was a day to where you had to be outraged about everything, especially Christians had to be outraged about everything. And certain demographics, they had to be outraged about everything and you know, if I’m not speaking up loud enough, then I I’m not an ally and I don’t care. That isn’t the way of Jesus. I see Jesus walking around talking to individual people. I see Jesus turning over tables one time. I see him sitting at tables with enemies many times. And so if if the Lord prepares a table for me in the presence of my enemy, sometimes I’m an enemy to them, sometimes they’re an enemy to me, uh, but we hopefully are coming to the table together. So Yeah. I love that.
Tommy Brown: I love that. I think I think that’s what we need to head towards as the body of Christ. Because don’t you think that if we’re just always making public statements, whether that’s social media or through other content Preaching sermons, whatever it is. Yeah. Sometimes we’re just adding fuel to fire. We’re just more outrage, we’re more noise in our culture. Yeah. And we get kind of swept up in it. Where if we can be that contemplative other, leading a quiet, peaceable life. Yeah. I think that is the best witness.
Guest: Somebody called that a non-anxious presence. Yeah, yeah. I d it’s probably I don’t know, it could be Buddhist. I’m not sure. I don’t care. And what whatever it is, I want to be a non-anxious presence in the room. Not reactive. I do want to be contemplative in the sense that I’m I’m really listening both to you and to Christ in that moment. So for me, I think Merton said prayer is just paying attention to God So I I want to be able to pay attention to God in our conversation and even make our conversation a form of prayer, a a form of dialogue before God. That that dia, the Greek root, and you know this the D I A is through, and then that logay or however you would say it also You get logos out of that, that through dialogue, something of the word comes into the space. Even if we disagree, but we’re dialoguing in the presence of Christ. Something of the living word comes in comes into that space. So Derek, you tr you you reminded me of something just a minute ago. I just wanted to come back to it for just a second in terms of not always having to have an opinion. I read it somewhere in it’s in the writings of the Desert Fathers. I forget who it was, but he said whenever you have somebody that is saying something that you disagree with, and even if you know it’s wrong, That you should say to that person, and I quote, you know what you think. You know what you think. So that person is going off on something, they’re loud, they’re obnoxious, you know, this is wrong, and all Republicans or Democrats or Christians or blah blah blah. That you don’t even have to give the person your opinion. You can just look at the person and say, You know what you think. You know what you think I’m not saying I agree with you. I’m not even saying you know what you’re talking about. I can just say, boy, you know what you think. And that’s okay. I love it. A lot of conversations would be a lot shorter if when people are just spouting off about everything, you just kinda sit there and you go, Oh Oh, that’s interesting. And then they’ll move on to something else. It’s so great, especially for introverts like me. Not uh I can I can just oh that’s interesting. Oh tell me more I I don’t even have to say anything. They’ll wear themselves out. I can just go on about my business.
Tommy Brown: I love that. That’s a great practice. And speaking of practices, I want to talk a bit about your book, The Eight for Meaning. Okay. One of the things I loved about that book is that you not only walk us through the temptations of Christ and how that reveals three core questions that we all wrestle with. But w I love that there’s practices. Yeah. In this book. We don’t have a ton of time today, but give us a quick synopsis of the ache for meaning, and then we might drill down into one of those practices.
Guest: That’s that’s really kind of you to to ask about that, Derek. This was I I spent uh I don’t know how long, I’m gonna say seven years or more, I could be wrong, living in that That passage of Scripture, Matthew. And so the temptations of Christ, they start at his baptism, where John baptizes Jesus, and then the heavens are open, and then the Father says, This is my son, whom I love, and whom I’m well pleased, and then the Spirit Sends him into the wilderness. He’s tested 40 days and 40 nights. He’s fasting. He’s alone. And then Satan comes to him and offers him three uh three temptations or seductions. And so, you know, I know that we don’t have a lot of time, but this this is what it did for me. Rather than trying to explain everything about the book, I wrote the book if people want to read it, they can read it. But what what it did for me was in those three tests or those three temptations, um I saw the the deep questions and the deep struggles and the the deep anxieties in my life. I saw them as as being able to contain in three tests all the things I was going through. And here’s what I mean by this. So the first temptation is turn these stones to bread. And I think that strikes at our deeply human need for security. We all need security. And I could I could take you into the the the literature on this, but th they’ll tell you in some way or another that we have three courtees security. Security, approval, and a healthy sense of control. Not to be controlling, but control. So security, approval, control. Those three temptations map one-to-one all of those three core human needs. So that first temptation, turn these stones to bread, the devil is hitting at our deeply human need for security. And what does Jesus do? He says, Man doesn’t live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. That’s a mindset of trust. And that’s steeped in this ancient backstory as all of the three temptations were in Israel’s story and with Moses in particular. of uh the manna falling from the heavens, and so they’re to gather five days a certain portion, six days twice on the sixth day twice as much, on the seventh day they’re to take a Sabbath and to gather none. And so we don’t we don’t have time to go into it, but here’s what I will say. If you find yourself striving, if you find yourself burned out and worn out and white-knuckling your way through life, you’re living out the first temptation of Christ. You’re trying to turn something, trying to make something happen. You’re striving, trying to turn stones to bread metaphorically. What do you need to do? Do what he offered. Trust. Man doesn’t live by bread alone. I’m hanging on the words of God. Sure, I need to eat, but even more than I need to eat, my life is sustained by the voice and the words of God in my life. And then the practice that you mentioned is the practice of Sabbath. So one day a week, we enter into this deep and abiding trust. By taking our hands off of the control, as it were, of our life and the work of our life, and we’re just saying, God, for one day, I’m just going to rest and contemplate your goodness in my life and trust and so I go into how to create a Sabbath, how Sabbath can be life giving. For me and my family, we didn’t approach it by like, what are all the things we need to stop doing? A wise rabbi once told me, he said, instead of focusing on what you need to quit, Why don’t you do one thing your family never gets to do that you love and enjoy and watch what happens? So for us, we just started cooking outside and eating outside one day a week. And those were some of the most beautiful days that of of of my life being with my family like that. So in the book I I tell my story of Deep stress and anxiety, and how the temptations of price just became a lifeline for me to see my my struggles in price temptation. The mindset I needed in Christ’s mindset, and the practices that could walk me through and help me find healing and wholeness and a sense of peace in my life. So I’m still on that journey. We all are. Uh but it’s um it’s helping me.
Tommy Brown: I love it. I that that practice of Sabbath Yeah. To have one day to pull back from your normal, you know, everyday life. Yeah. To find delight. I think a part of Sabbath Yeah. It’s not just ceasing activity and work. That’s right. But finding those things that you delight in. So I tell people that I I start my Sabbath not with prayer. I I’m not that spiritual. I start my Sabbath day, which for me is Friday. Yeah. Uh it starts with a long run. Um which a lot of people would not take delight in. Yeah, that’s not me, dude. I do. And it ends with pizza night with the family. That’s something we’ve done for like twelve years. It’s pizza night and find things that you delight in. That’s a part of Sabbath.
Guest: You know what’s really weird, and I’ll say this just really quick, is people give uh give give Jews this persona. They’re just they’re just wah, you know, they’re just whatever. Uh the Jews, here’s what they’re doing on Sabbath. They’re feasting and they’re having sex. with their spouse. Yeah. So there and you may want to edit that out, I don’t care, but but the Jews on Sabbath, they’re like, yeah, this is a day where no matter what happens the rest of the week, we’re making love on the Sabbath. And why? It’s a day for joy. Isaiah said, if you would stop all the stupid stuff you’re doing and turn your foot from all your wickedness and call the Sabbath a delight. Yeah. And so yeah, we’ve got it all backwards. When you start reading Eschul and the tradition on Sabbath, it is joy, bro, through and through.
Tommy Brown: Absolutely. I think that’s a core practice. And hey, I’m going to circle back to that those verses in First Thessalonians that you uh quoted a couple of times. It’s First Thessalonians four. Verse 11 and 12. I think this is a great way to bring this episode to a conclusion to emphasize what the apostle was saying here again. First. Thessalonians four, eleven and twelve, make it your ambition to lead a quiet life. You should mind your own business and work with your hands just as we told you so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody. Yeah. I think if we’re going to be salt and light in a very angry, divisive culture, this is the way to do it. Tommy, thanks so much for being with me today. You’ll have to come back because there’s so much more I want to talk about. But thank you for being with me today. Where can people find you in the social media online world?
Guest: Well, I think if you probably type in my name, at some point it’ll come up. There are a lot of record producers, bass players, and football players that bear my name, but if you keep scrolling and you find this redheaded guy. Uh that’s me. I think it’s Tommy the Brown. Uh they can also go to my website at Tommy Brown. org as um some of my work there and uh they can find me through that. And Derek, this conversation’s great. I love it. I’m a fan of the podcast and I hope that other people will share the word. And then they’ll hit the subscribe button and uh lock into what you’re doing because my man, we need what you are teaching us these days. Thanks for having me on.
Tommy Brown: Thank you, man. Uh love you appreciate you. Definitely. Let’s have this conversation again. Everybody go find Tommy the Brown on social media. Follow him I know he’s working on another book that’s coming out. When’s your next book coming out?
Guest: Oh boy, manuscript is due September of twenty-four, which means if everything goes according to plan and we don’t have another pandemic Then it’s gonna come out in September of twenty five.
Tommy Brown: Don’t hold me to that, but that’s what the voices tell me. All right, so you gotta follow Tommy on social media so you can get caught up on all these doing and the new book whenever it comes out. But that’s it. That’s all we have for today. Thanks for listening. Go in peace and be kind
This transcript was generated with AI and may contain errors.