Show Notes
In this episode of Peaceable and Kind, host Derek Vreeland interviews Andrew Camp, the host of The Biggest Table podcast. Andrew shares his spiritual journey and how his love for cooking led him to explore the connection between food, hospitality, and spirituality. They discuss the importance of lingering at the table, the value of embodied experiences, and the role of hospitality in creating peace and kindness. Andrew emphasizes the need to create space for others to flourish and to remain curious about their stories. They also highlight the practice of inviting people into our homes and engaging in meaningful conversations over a meal.
Books mentioned in this episode:
Living the Resurrection - Eugene Peterson
For the Life of the World- Alexander Schmemann
Food and Faith - Norman Wirzba
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Transcript
Narrator: Welcome to Peaceable and Kind, the podcast where we explore the transformation. Each week your host, Derek Vreeland, will delve into the stories, scriptures, and practical steps that help us embody these essential Christian virtues.
Derek Vreeland: Welcome back to another episode of Peaceable and Kind. I’m your host, Derek Vreeland. And I am glad that you have found this episode and that you’re taking time out of your day to listen. Please subscribe if you haven’t already and leave a rating and review. Fall is here and this is my favorite time of year here in northwest Missouri where I live. It’s football season, the leaves are changing, it’s hoodie weather, I love it. And I think you’re going to love this episode because I have a guest with me. Our guest today is Andrew Camp, who is the host of the biggest table. Podcast which draws on his experience as both a professional chef and pastor to help people experience a rich lived experience around the table. Andrew has a master’s in spiritual formation and soul care from Talbot Seminary. He’s married to Claire and they have two daughters, Hazel and Hannah. And they currently live in Flagstaff, Arizona. Andrew, welcome to Peaceable and Kind. Thanks, Derek. It’s great to be with you. It’s great to be with another podcast host, someone that kind of gets the podcast world And uh you had me uh on the biggest table. We had a great conversation. Um, and so I’m so glad that you joined me for this episode of Peaceable and Kind. I do want to talk a little bit about podcasts, but before we get there, I’m assuming most of the people listening today are unaware of who you are. So tell us your story. I’d love to hear about your spiritual journey and and what got you to this point in your life. So tell us your story.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, no. Thanks, Derek. So yeah, I was fortunate to be raised by strong Bible-believing Christian parents. They both came to know Jesus through the navigators in college, but just remember always being in church, um, being around Christians and um, you know, had great experiences both in high school with a leader who introduced me to apologetics and really helped me understand that I could love Jesus through my mind and much more geared towards the academic side and lived in my head. And it’s not always healthy, but it’s somehow of how God has made me. And so I was always jealous in high school of kids who could worship in this great emotional thing. And I thought I was lacking in something, but I think through apologetics, understanding that the mind is just as important. Um, and so through those experiences, uh really the Lord led me to Biola University where I thought I was going to be a pre med major, um, but two weeks into my freshman year I was falling asleep every day in biology class and had no desire to study. And so I thought, hmm, this isn’t really um Good. You know, I don’t think this is setting me up for success uh in the medical world if I don’t want to study uh biology. And so I just remember walking across Biola’s campus to drop uh biology and feeling this sense of peace um and calmness that had eluded me or it just was a different lived experience than I remember. And so became a Bible major And with that always got the question of, so what are you gonna do? You know, because clearly if you’re a Bible major, you’re, you know, you got a really keen sense of who you are and what you’re going to do in life. And I didn’t have a clue. But I thought and I always told people, well, two things I know Jesus isn’t calling me to is being a missionary and being a youth pastor. Uh but right after college I moved to China to be a youth pastor for missionary kids. Of course. Of course, yeah. And was in Kunmin, China, um, which is in the southwest of China, right above Myanmar Laos in um Vietnam. And so Just had a rich experience there of being in the missionary community. I got to pastor kids from every walk of life. Um, from I think I had fifteen different nationalities. And then every denomination from very assemblies of God who wanted us baptized in the Spirit speaking in tongues every time to super Dutch reformed, you know, who but through that I learned how to walk a middle road and to appreciate the beauty of this the breadth of Christian doctrine and um come came to love, like, oh, there’s some beliefs of God people have a lot to offer. And having grown up what white evangelical, like Charismatic experiences just weren’t part of my my spiritual journey. And so yeah, it that was rich. Uh and then moved back to do my masters. And through my masters, again, cooking was Weaved throughout all of this and that’s a whole other story. But halfway through my masters, I decided I needed to enroll in culinary school as well. I was single at the time, but Uh it’s not something I would recommend doing a master’s, doing culinary school and working part-time, but it was really my way of embracing who God was calling me to be. And if you’ve grown up in the church, you know that there can be a lot of pressure. um to conform and to be this certain type of person. My dad was elder, you know, an elder at the church and this is a big Southern California church and so Uh I wasn’t a pastor’s kid, but I felt like I was as close to a pastor’s kid as could be. You know, we were well-known family. Um and so this culinary journey was sort of my way of saying no, like I’m I’m going to embrace God’s call in my life and not what I think the church wants me to be. Um and so so yeah, through that just felt, you know have sort of tried to follow Jesus as best I could through this meandering experience of China, cooking, pastoring, um, getting married, having kids, you know, so it’s been a journey, but um through it all I’ve just sensed as best as I could, you know, God’s call on my life and trying to take the next best right step.
Derek Vreeland: It’s interesting that when Yeah, students who are making that transition, you know, from high school into college. Like at eighteen, nineteen, twenty, they’re supposed to know exactly what they’re gonna do for the rest of their life. But most of us, that’s not our experience. We don’t we’re not so sure. I mean I mean our brains aren’t even fully formed at nineteen years old. How are we supposed to know, you know, what the rest of the life our life looks like? Exactly. And there is a there is a pressure that there within the church, um, for those that are pastors’ kids, elders’ kids, you’re a child of a church leader. that like the pinnacle, like the ultimate is, well, you gotta go to seminary and become a pastor. That’s like the highest calling Right. Uh but for me, when young people will come to me and say, I’m in college, I’m thinking about maybe being a pastor, maybe going to seminary, what do you think? My response is always, can you do anything else? If you can do something else with your life, make ministry and being a pastor the last option. Yeah. I I think that’s a good way to kind of discern.
Andrew Camp: No, absolutely. Uh I love the church. I love the community of believers. I think there is something rich about it, but it is a a hard journey in which you have to have tough skin and know how to minister to people across a wide swath. That’s true. Um, you know, and speak not only to young people but also to older people who are going through a very different lived experience and um so yeah it it’s a challenge but it can be very beautiful as well
Derek Vreeland: Well, I think, you know, for those of us in vocational ministry, it’s, you know, when it’s a true calling, when it’s like for me, it is the only thing I could do. Like I I just I I don’t know what else I could do. I I couldn’t sell insurance. I’m like the worst salesperson ever. I couldn’t I couldn’t do that. I don’t know what I could do. Um but I I understand though through through your journey of discernment, um often different educational programs will spark um interest or passion. So I’m assuming when you were in culinary school you weren’t falling asleep. I I assume that when you were in that it sort of struck a chord with you.
Andrew Camp: No, I totally did. And it was just this sense of aliveness. I’ve always cooking for me has always been this joy and this experience of where Um, you know, and having done it professionally, obviously it’s a different experience than for a lot of people. Sure. But it’s a place in the kitchen where I feel most free and confident. Um, and it’s something I wrestle with of like, how do I take that confidence into my spiritual life? Um, which has not translated yet. Um, and it’s still something God and I wrestle through and I’m working through, but you know, I get in the kitchen and I don’t think. I just feel, you know, and it it’s one of those experiences and if other people have a hobby or played sports, you know, when you can just do it And it’s there’s some muscle memory. There’s just uh a sense of joy um that I experience in the kitchen that I don’t experience many other places.
Derek Vreeland: I know exactly what you mean. Sports, I think, is a great analogy for any kind of progression in our learning, right? Because we start in a place where we don’t know anything. Actually we start in a place where we’re ignorant of our ignorance. Like we don’t even know what we don’t know. Right. And then we become aware that we don’t know. So we enter a program uh go to school and now we are like consciously becoming aware oh there’s this whole field out there and we slowly start learning and then you start doing But at first it’s you’re very self-conscious about okay, am I doing this right, doing that right? And and then as you progress in whatever field, then you get to that place, which is sort of the pinnacle of learning where you can do unconsciously where it really becomes like instincts. And I think that’s the moment of freedom, whether you are a pastor or a chef, where you can do without thinking.
Andrew Camp: Yeah, absolutely. Where and sometimes I have to stop and think like, okay, wait, what am I doing and how would I translate this to teaching? Because, you know, oh it just needs a little of this, but I don’t always know why or how. Like it just, you know, it’s just this felt thing, you know, felt experience for me of cooking.
Derek Vreeland: Right. Well, so you haven’t been able to integrate this love of cooking, at least into your spiritual life yet, but you have combined the themes uh in your podcast, The Biggest Table. And I so enjoyed being a guest. We talked about the Lord’s Table. Uh because when I was talking to you, I said, I I’m not really a cook. Like I got this black stone griddle. I could talk to you about griddle cooking and but then I had mentioned to you, I said, but if we’re thinking about the table, well there’s the Lord’s table, there’s the communion table. So we had a great conversation. Yeah. It was a great yeah. And the whole idea of because someone asked me, I told them I was on your podcast, and I said Well, it seems to be sort of a weaving together of spirituality and food. What a great concept. Um but tell me the origin story. So uh where did the idea of launching this podcast, The Biggest Table, where did that come from
Andrew Camp: It’s actually a close to a 15 year journey for me, believe it or not. Wow. Um because when I was in China, I started getting like haunted by this question. of why do we linger at the table. You know, I shared a lot of meals with missionaries and we would just sit at the table, even when the couches are ten feet away and couches are way like I’ve I’ve never sat in a dining room chair that I thought, you know what I need? I need to just recline here for hours. Right. But we sit at the table. And so it just became this question for me And it was through reading Eugene Peterson, who I think every pastor and every Christian should be familiar with his work.
Derek Vreeland: Yes.
Andrew Camp: You know, but he has a s he has a smaller book called Living the Resurrection. And in it, this phrase jumped out that has stayed with me, but he says that the gospel writers are most fond of telling stories of Jesus around the table.
Derek Vreeland: Yes.
Andrew Camp: And it was at that point that all of a sudden, like light bulbs went off, everything something clicked for me where I’m like, oh my goodness, like, okay, there’s something here. Like I need to figure this out. Like, you know, in my analytical nerdy side, you know, went into overdrive and and from that point I have really wanted to understand The table, hospitality, food, which is what led me eventually to culinary school, not to be a professional chef long-term, but to say, okay, what is food and what is this table and why what bring what what is it about food that brings people together? And so, you know, through this whole journey of reading and discovery, I’ve always wanted to combine it and do something, but through moving, through getting married, through kids and jobs and a whole host of factors. It the timing just never felt right. But this past year I found myself unemployed, which was a really hard season. But also then through Claire’s nudging, you know, and and I think Jesus’ invitation of like, okay, like I now have the space and the time to enter into this love of mine and this passion. And so it just was really like, okay, why not start a podcast? Like this is the first step of like I’ve read books, I know authors, like I have no problem reaching out to random authors, I love their work, you know, and just asking, like Hey, would you be interested? Because the answer is always no until you ask, I found, you know. And I found most people very gracious and, you know, eager to have a conversation of what is food and the table. And and so yeah, it’s been this passion project, but also I think an important idea that I would love for the church to say, okay, how in our accelerated world Do we find meaningful connection in our divided world? How can we break down barriers? How can we love each other and become more fully human in in this season? Because Um one of my favorite authors is Alexander Shimamon and his book for the life of the world, he begins it by saying, you know, God created man hungry, um, and not just spiritually hungry, but physically hungry. And so I think our hunger, our physical hunger, um, and our spiritual hunger, they they’re intertwined, and we if we try to separate them, I think we’re in danger of a lot of spiritual dysfunction. Um, and so I think part of it has just been, okay, how do we live this embodied whole life that Jesus it calls us to and that he lives while on earth of eating, you know, not only with sinners and tax collectors, but Pharisees. And and so yeah, it’s just been a fun joyous project for me that I’m not sure where it all leads. My wife asks me every now and then, like, hey, what’s the end goal? Like, because podcasting’s not easy. It takes time. It’s yeah you know The fun part is the conversation, the hard part is the editing and the producing and getting all of it done and out.
Derek Vreeland: But um Well, I think you’re on to something though. I mean that that That key question, why do we linger at the table? That that’s got me thinking in so many different directions. I know at our home We have always tried to have family dinner around the table. And over the years, we developed a no-electronic device policy. Although these years it seems like dad, me, I’m the one bringing my phone to the table, but uh but it’s just for our family dynamic, I recognize the value Um, and there is a lingering at the table, even if the food’s not so good, there is sort of a hanging out because it seems like for our family, and then then I’m also thinking about church and community and neighborhoods, but just within our family It seems like the dinner table, that’s the only time in our day that we’re all together in one place and we’re facing one another. Um with nothing in between. You know, you can watch a movie with your fam, which is fun, and we we of course do that too. Um, but that’s not The same kind of shared experience as sitting together with nothing in between us, and we’re just facing one another all the conversations that take place. It’s it’s hard to reduplicate that with anything else.
Andrew Camp: No, absolutely. And and then the joy, like, you know, our girls are six and eight and so they’re just discovering food. And it is, I think, one of the most joyous experiences is when they eat something and they’re like, oh, like, this is so good. Daddy, you gotta try this. Or like, you know, we do We love Reclet, which is a um Swiss Alps fondue esque type meal, but it’s fun to watch her like do different combinations with cheese and potatoes and meat and or be like, Daddy, this bite, you gotta try it. Like, you know, in the joy of her face, you know, in discovering, you know, or having her help prepare food, you know, or them engage in this process of not only preparing food but setting the table or do you know, how do we involve them in this process? Because Um, if you are parent of young kids, like sitting at the table or getting dinner on the table after a long day at work can be a chore. Like it’s exhausting, like competing desires, competing, you know, needs and And so but, you know, the moment where we can just sit or involve them in the process and that’s been another joy for us, for me personally. Oh yeah.
Derek Vreeland: So so much joy uh around the table. So I grew up with just one brother seven years my younger, and our dad traveled a lot. um with work and so growing up it’d often be my brother and just my mom at the table. We had a dinner table, uh, but we usually ate around this little bar. It was kind of like a little breakfast bar, we had most of our meals there. And I remember on one occasion, I was a teenager and my brother was, I don’t know how old he was, probably seven or eight. And we were eating um peas and carrots. And it there was the carrots were in little cubes. And I showed him how to turn his um fork into a catapult. You know, where the fork is laying on the table, you could put the little little cube, cubed carrot on one end and then pound the the tines of the fork. So I showed him how to do it. He did it once and then we heard our mom coming back into the room and he hit it again. And the carrot went straight up and stuck to the ceiling. And my mom never knew what happened, but we laughed and we still laugh about that. So much joy happens around the table. Uh let’s talk a little theology. Um, you used the phrase um embodied experience, and as a pastor, I am concerned with a spiritual or Christian emphasis that’s disembodied, there’s this false value of spirituality. Of course, spirituality is important, but some people think the only thing worth doing are quote-unquote spiritual things that’s disengaged from the physical. And so how can a renewed focus on the table, food and drink and a shared experience How can that help us reinforce, for example, the doctrine of creation?
Andrew Camp: No, for sure. And I think that’s a great question, because it is. something I think evangelicalism has wrestled with and always maybe swung the pendulum too far to, you know, a little more disembodied practices and But I think with creation, um, and Norman Wurzba, you know, for your listeners who aren’t familiar with him, Norman Wurzba has been the voice for me in terms of what how I think of food. Um he’s written a few books and um my favorite of his is Food and Faith, um, a theology of eating. And so like I think he was one of the first that pointed out to me, you know, just the the sense that Adam was created from dust, you know, and that um, you know, our who we are as humans is is dust and earth and we’re earthly matter. And then I think it’s important to remember like God placed us in a garden to start with, like full of beauty and delight and full of every good thing to eat. You know Interesting that the eating of animals doesn’t start till after the fall. And I think, you know, there is something to Brussels with that of what that means. But I I love meat and um firmly believe in eating a good steak. Um But, you know, we we started in a garden with with wonderful food and to eat. Yeah. Um and so I think And not just to eat, but to cultivate. You know, God told us to cultivate the earth. And so there’s something about getting our hands in the ground. Yeah. Um, as I’ve talked to certain guests Um, especially people who have been in ministry, there’s been a couple of themes in which they say like gardening has been a refuge for their soul, where there was something in the midst of the struggle of ministry and just the struggle of life. And so even if you’re not in ministry, but there’s something about getting your hands in that soil and cultivating it and growing and picking and just being part of the earth is just there’s something grounding about it. And I think it you know, sure we can probably explain it more, but I think there’s something mysterious and beauty that just okay, like If we’re from the earth and to the earth we will return, like getting my hands in that dirt should be serve as a reminder of this connection to Jesus and this connection to this earth. that while fallen is still very good. And so I yeah, I think there’s just so much wrapped up in in creation that is worth exploring.
Derek Vreeland: That sounds like something Wendell Berry would say. I think you’re channeling Wendell Berry there. So, our focus here is thinking about a peaceable and kind life. So, what are some table practices that would lead to peaceableness and kindness in our families, neighborhoods, churches? What would be some some real key practices?
Andrew Camp: One, I think recognizing that hospitality isn’t the food network version, but you know, again Um to quote somebody else, like Henry Nowen talks about hospitality as this creation of space for the other to flourish or to be who they are meant to be. And so if hospitality is this desire to allow others to not be who we want them to be, but to be who God has invited them and created them to be, starting there, you know, and recognizing the hard work I need to do in my own soul to be able to do that. Cause I get easily triggered. I get easily frustrated. I get irritated by people, by my own kids, by, you know, there’s a lot that can irritate us. And so as we invite people into our homes and not knowing where the conversation might lead, to be centered of who I am. You know, and so the work begins in me, but then to be curious about the other. Um, I think too often we quickly jump to assumptions. of why. Uh I was just able to talk to Caleb Campbell, who has this great book on Christian nationalism, you know, and how do we love our Christian nationalist neighbors? But even beyond that, you know, even if it’s just a a dinner with friends that you already know and love, but that curiosity of asking questions and asking, okay, what what led you to that and being open to their responses and to finding common ground versus just natural assumptions, you know, I do all the time. Um and so I think recognizing what hospitality is, but then also having this curiosity. for the other that invites story and invites a shared experience that you could then understand their values versus, you know combating you know what they say.
Derek Vreeland: So good. I think the practice of hospitality is is is is lacking, I know, in a lot of our churches. And I think that’s Uh that’s a beautiful way to frame it is inviting people in for the benefit of the other, for their flourishing And yeah, and so if we just prepare a meal, and it doesn’t have to be a food network production, uh just whatever you like, you know, to prepare, uh cook a meal, invite people over, and remain curious. Um, I think that’s really what causes people to open up, to be, to just be curious and to ask questions. I think that is a key practice in creating kindness in our neighborhood. So good. So good.
Andrew Camp: And I always tell people like when you’re inviting people over, don’t try a new recipe. Try try you go to your tried and true. Yes. You know, like because it takes the stress out. Like if if the goal is to connect You know, you don’t need to impress somebody with something that’s gonna stress you out. Like just bring them to your table with something you love. Because I’ve always said like food, the food doesn’t matter, but it does. Like, you know, there’s this give and take. Like, yes, I can connect over craft mac and cheese and dyno bites, but there is also something better and more beautiful in a an elegant meal at times. Sure. Um and so both are called for. And so I think as people think about practicing hospitality, like Making it simple for them so that the guest can remain the central aspect is key for me.
Derek Vreeland: I love that. Andrew, thank you so much for uh joining me on this episode. I have enjoyed this conversation and I hope your podcast really takes off. I think you’re really on to something here.
Andrew Camp: Thanks, Derek. No, it’s been fun to talk with you both times, you know. That’s right. Yeah, it’s it’s great.
Derek Vreeland: All right. Well, that’s all we have for today. Go check out the biggest table podcast. Thanks for listening to this episode, Go in Peace and Be Kind.
This transcript was generated with AI and may contain errors.