Show Notes
In this episode of Peaceable and Kind, host Derek Vreeland engages in a reflective conversation with pastors Rodney Bradford and Allan Purtill about their shared experiences in ministry over the past 20 years. They discuss their early days as lead pastors, the friendships formed through shared challenges, and the significant changes in the church landscape, particularly the impact of technology and cultural shifts. Despite these changes, they emphasize the unchanging nature of the gospel and the core tasks of pastoral ministry. In this conversation, the speakers explore the evolving landscape of church culture, focusing on the integration of liturgical practices, the shift towards kindness within congregations, and the personal growth experienced over the past two decades. They discuss the importance of creating a stable worship environment, the return to traditional practices, and the significance of rest in fostering kindness and community engagement.
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Transcript
Narrator: Welcome to Peaceable and Kind, the podcast where we explore the transformation. Of living out Jesus’ call to peace and kindness in our everyday lives. Each week your host, Derek Vreeland, will delve into the stories, scriptures, and practical steps that help us embody these essential Christian virtues.
Derek Vreeland: Welcome back to another episode of Peaceable and Kind. I am your host, Derek Vreeland, and thank you for joining me for this episode. This is Going to be a good one. I have some guests with me, I have some friends with me, and I’m so eager to jump into this conversation. But before we get started, if you haven’t already Let me invite you to subscribe to Peaceable and Kind wherever you are listening to this podcast. And if you would be so kind, would you leave a rating or review? That helps other people learn about our podcast. We are creating Christian content that promotes peaceableness. and kindness in our world. And so if you’re enjoying content like this, if you could uh and would be interested to share this episode or previous episodes with a friend. I would sure appreciate that. This is a conversation that I have been looking forward to for some time now. I have two pastor friends with me. And so let me introduce them to you, and then we are going to jump into a conversation together. First up, I have Rodney Bradford. He is one of the pastors at Christ Fellowship Eastside in Greenville, South Carolina. There, Rodney is responsible for pastoral care, counseling, and small group ministry. He holds an MDiv from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Rodney has served congregations in the Carolinas, Georgia, and Indiana. He is married to Kathy, who is an English teacher at a local high school. They have four adult children and one wonderful granddaughter. Rodney enjoys taking long walks searching for the best hot Dog in Greenville and watching British crime shows with Kathy. And along with Rodney, I have Dr. Alan Pertil with us, and he serves the Tryon Presbyterian Church in Tryon, North Carolina. He has been a pastor for almost 25 years serving congregations. in rural and suburban communities. He’s married to Jenny and they have one daughter in college and one son finishing high school. Alan’s a graduate of Princeton, a seminary where he did an M-Div. He also completed his Doctor of Ministry degree at Columbia Theological Seminary. He is a lover of short jogs, walks along the river with Jenny and their pup Bailey, plucking a little on the guitar and keeping their son’s old VW Rabbit a running. Rodney, Alan, welcome to Peaceable and Kind. Hey, thanks so much. Thank you. It’s good to be back together. We are back together. So what I didn’t say in our introduction is the three of us were pastoring various churches in southwest Georgia. Guys, was it 20 years ago? What when did we first meet? Was it 20 years ago?
Guest: Um, I think it was closer to like not quite, like 2006, I think. Is when that would have been maybe the end of 2005. So maybe it has been 20 years.
Derek Vreeland: 20 years. So we were all pastoring, and I think we were all Like lead pastors pastoring in a lead capacity for the first time. Is that correct? Were we all pastoring our first church? I think Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Guest: Yeah. Lead pastor, though, sounds a little more glamorous than what it was, you know, because for me, I was just, I was it. There wasn’t, you know, there was no one else.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, we were in uh rural areas, um smaller congregations. Uh uh Alan and I had uh some some staff, but yeah, when we say lead pastor, we were like solo pastors. We we had uh elders or deacons and we had those supporting us, but we were and we were young. We were young men then. No grandkids back then, uh Rodney. We were young. Mm.
Guest: Yeah, that’s for sure, you know, ‘cause that was my first uh when I first moved to Georgia, uh, first church after graduating from seminary and it had really taken me a long time because you know, the original plan was to go to seminary and get it knocked out and that was in ninety six when I started, but I didn’t graduate until uh 04 because, well, we started having kids. And so going to school and doing seminary at the same time certainly slowed everything down for us.
Guest: I remember we all had we all sort of had this calling or heart for the rural church. On the one hand we weren’t necessary uh necessarily role. I mean Derek and I were in the city of Americas of eighteen thousand people. But yeah, we we come we came from these different backgrounds in terms of Christian tradition. But we were young Pastor’s first call is Pastor of the Church, trying to raise kids Uh trying to navigate life without a Walmart tar well we had a Walmart, but no target. Um and trying to find decent coffee. Ah yes. That’s part of what brought us together.
Guest: Yeah. Um well you know really Alan, if you’ll remember what I you know, we have to really credit our wives that we became friends because you know Kathy um came to a book club over in Americas I don’t remember if it was at y’all’s church or just in town, but Kathy met, you know, Jenny first, and then Kathy came home and said, Yeah, I met this, you know, gal and her husbands a pastor and y’all should get together and which I have to confess my wife has been the impetus for a lot of friendships I have.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, Alan, Alan, you’re really the hub here because the two of you met through your wives. And then Alan, I met you um initially at a ministerial association meeting. I mean, I met you. You were new. And then I was in that shoe repair shop getting a leather satchel repaired. And in you walk in.
Guest: So that right there says something like. Well, we think about what we have in common. Um, you know, here we are. What other 30 somethings in 2006 were getting their shoes repaired? Um, you know, that was still a thing. Take your shoes, get a new soul put on, a new heel. And and we were both in there.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, and so that I don’t know who first had the idea, but we were in search of good coffee, and uh we found good coffee at the maze, which
Guest: uh is a consignment shop that had a coffee bar in the back had a really nice espresso machine in the back and it was like do y’all know how to work this
Guest: Yeah, the maze. I had forgotten the name of that place.
Guest: They had everything. I mean they had this little everybody could rent a space and sell their wares and they had all sorts of great stuff. And they had that coffee bar and Andrea was the owner.
Derek Vreeland: Oh yes.
Guest: We would sit at those metal tables in the back and we would have these conversations. I mean I was I found it interesting that, you know, I was the Presbyterian with the framework of theology, right? And we were all we were reading some of the same people. Um, you know, we had read Calvin and Seminary and and then we had all started reading Peterson or something at some point, Eugene Peterson.
Guest: Yeah, I think that was a really big connecting point because we all really liked Eugene Peterson and we were fans of the message and his books and You know, I think that was kind of the connection. And it really created a a real I mean, for me, it was just such a safe spot to meet up with you guys every week. And because it became really apparent to me very quickly that my thinking having grown up in the upstate of South Carolina was very different. than what it was like in rural Georgia. And I just kind of worked on the assumption of, hey, I love Jesus, you love Jesus, we’re gonna have a good time. And that’s not what was going on at all. And so I I didn’t really feel prepared. Um, I wasn’t as good a missionary as maybe I needed to be, um, learning about rural Georgia and how culture worked there and I felt like it was always a struggle for me. And so that weekly connection to be able to debrief and talk and, you know, share the trouble and share the problems and get good advice. And, you know, that was I mean, that was just such an oasis every week for me.
Guest: I remember looking back, the call I had before Americus was a large um a large church and uh Mount Pleasant Charleston area and uh I’d been there five and a half years as an associate pastor in a corporate kind of setting and I thought I was pretty hot stuff. Yeah, I think what God sent me Tambaricus uh in exile. Um but I had some things to learn and I’ll never forget after learning what it means to be the pastor and the only pastor or or one of though we had a we had a part-time associate, but um I went back and told my former I went back to my former head of staff and apologized. I was like, you know, I’m sorry for just always, you know, I’d question your leadership. Or I was like, I had no idea.
Derek Vreeland: I think our time in Americus was a crucible of sorts that God used uh to refine us. We I think a lot we grew up um as husbands and fathers and and pastors. But I agree with you, Rodney, that our coffee meeting was an oasis. It was We would meet once a week and I so looked forward to it because we had such diverse theological backgrounds. And I fondly remember, you know, our conversations about infant baptism or women in ministry or the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And we didn’t always agree, but that was okay. We weren’t looking for agreement. We were looking to learn from one another and to grow in appreciation.
Guest: Yeah, I tell people all the time that I became a Baptist then, you know, because now you’re in a setting where I’ve got to defend this stuff. You know, I believe this because. And that’s really where a lot of things got super clarified in my mind.
Guest: I just remember the people shopping and we’d be having these conversations and they would start eavesdropping. And sometimes they would they would they would start talking to us, but just the things they heard Yeah. Coming from our table as they were wandering the maze shopping.
Derek Vreeland: I have to confess, uh Rodney, that I have already told Alan this privately. Uh but he has won me over to the side of paedobaptism.
Guest: So theology.
Derek Vreeland: It has been 20 years. of Covenantal and Sacramental Theology and I’ve I’ve kind of jumped ship on that one.
Guest: Well, you know The Pedo Baptist forebearers, you know, killed my people in the past. So you know, I can’t give that up. So hey, I still love you guys though.
Derek Vreeland: I just enjoyed those weekly meetings. And so here we are, um, this is about 20 years uh after uh those coffee gatherings in the maze. And I thought it’d be interesting for this episode of the podcast to talk a little bit about changes. Uh what have you seen from your vantage point that has changed in the church? And in a little bit we’ll talk about maybe some things that have stayed the same, but what are some of the s some of the changes you’ve seen in the church over the last twenty years?
Guest: I think just the whole digital world thing is made everything just wildly different. Um And the way I think about it is kind of like when you take your kid into an ice cream shop that’s got 75 flavors. And as the dad or the mom, you’ve got to look at your kid and say, okay, is it chocolate, strawberry, or bubblegum And they’re pointing at everything else, and you’re having to limit some of the options for them. And I think that just all the options, all the information that people are under the influence of And I can remember saying to Kathy years ago, you know, because our kids are growing up in a time where they can know anything they want in a few seconds, it’s just going to create some assumptions for them. And now, you know, those folks are in their 20s and 30s who came of age in the digital world, and they just have assumptions that we didn’t have. And I think that’s probably to me the biggest change in the last twenty years.
Guest: I read those questions and I agree with um what Rodney said and then uh channel my interview Jean Peterson um I decided absolutely nothing has changed. And I think Yama to Rodney’s point, um, certainly there’s all this technical advance and so many things on a practical level have changed. But the task, you know, I mean the task of ministry, of pastoral ministry, of leadership of people of of getting um the things that bring us joy, the things that lead us to discontent as pastors, the challenge. If anything has changed, it’s my energy level.
Guest: It’s less.
Guest: And um I think also the wisdom of the mistakes I would say I even made in America as pastor. Um And even the last church and the ones I did last week. I don’t know. I I just had that sense when you asked that question. It was, oh yeah, you know, I remember ignoring the Facebook ads uh that would, you know. Be an online church, you know, from 2015, 14, 16, just saying that’s stupid. Who would want to do that? And then, you know, being forced um into that during the pandemic and now it’s twenty-five percent of our small church worships online. So a lot of practical changes, cultural changes certainly. Oh yeah. But then again, the the call, the gospel the job, the task of ministry is it’s the same. And I think what yeah people are looking for, whether they know it or not, I don’t I think there’s just so much that is the same
Derek Vreeland: I just appreciate it’s the Presbyterian Among Us saying nothing’s changed. But I Yeah, that’s not lost, is it? I appreciate though that awareness that it is true that our vocation and job as pastors that hasn’t changed. The gospel hasn’t changed But Rodney had said uh earlier that he maybe thought he wasn’t such the greatest missionary when he uh arrived in southwest Georgia. I do think the cultural changes requires us to be good missionaries. Um because the gospel hasn’t changed, but the context certainly has changed. And I I do agree, Rodney. I mean, I think the biggest change is the technological revolution because when we were in America, I just got a Facebook account. Like two thousand eight, two thousand nine, and we had no idea what was about to come down the pike.
Guest: Yeah. Well, I think, you know, when we talk about change, I think that’s probably how I think about it just culturally. You know, because twenty plus years ago, just the assumptions of people, especially if you were in the South, if you talked about God. I mean you didn’t know many people who would say to you, Oh, I don’t believe there’s a God. And then it was the same thing with the Bible. You know, you didn’t hear people saying, I don’t believe that’s not God’s word. And yet now it’s very common to engage, you know, here in the upstate of South Carolina, I meet people who would say they’re atheists, they don’t believe. And so the the shift in the, you know, a part of the Bible belt, if you will, in this area has changed pretty dramatically. And I think one of the things I think about how the digital world changes things is the temptation for like my kids to believe that everything is an event, you know, because you’ve got to take a picture of it, you’ve got to post it. And the real truth is that I have to remind my kids and people that, you know, who get married and all of that kind of thing that a lot of life is just boring, you know, taking out the garbage and washing dishes and, you know, that kind of stuff. And but when you raise up a camera to take a picture of it in your head, you’re telling yourself, this is really something. And then you read all the stuff about how comparison runs the gamut now in people’s thinking, and Hey, I don’t have it as good as him. So I’ve got to, you know, beef up my post so people will think I’ve got it good as well. And I I think that’s one of the big the big changes just in the mindset of people.
Derek Vreeland: And there are events that mark the year, even even for the church. So we, as a non-denominational congregation, have have taken on the liturgical seasons of the church. Because there’s rhythm in that to mark not just the holidays that all Christians, nearly all Christians celebrate, Christmas and Easter, but the liturgical seasons do create these event moments. But yeah, definitely I think our culture has moved towards everything has to be an event. And a lot of the Christian life isn’t like that. It’s just the day in, day out, becoming aware of the presence of God.
Guest: I think it was interesting what Rodney said too about being a missionary. It was it was at those tables the maze that we and what was happening in seminaries and Classrooms and churches, but we’re talking about missional church, if you remember that. Daryl Guter. And and that was just at the beginning of, oh my gosh, you know, Christendom is ending. What are we going to do? And being in America since 2006, yeah, it was still the Bible belt, and but it was already happening, but we were still kind of okay. in the sense of just going along what we always had and but I wonder, you know, now twenty years later, um yeah, I it just all the you know, I just kinda remember all at least in the Presbyterian tradition we have a Presbyterian, everybody gets on board of all these You know, you bring in the consultants to come into the church and you know, what is a missional church? And where where is that mission um sense today where you’re kind of I don’t know. I I I I asked Jenny what she thought, my wife Jenny. Like, hey, Derek wants to know what’s changed in the church. I don’t know. And she said that, from her standpoint at least, that it seems like the people You don’t have that expectation that you gotta be a member of a church. It’s not good for your business or social standing, it doesn’t matter. So the people who come are coming for a a reason that has maybe nothing to do with their social standing or their business or they’re coming for They’re need help. They’re they’re spiritual s seeking. So she feels there’s a maybe a that there maybe is a different motive or reason um for participation and in the in the gathered community of of of Christ than maybe not that it wasn’t there before it’s just the expectation to be there is different.
Guest: Yeah yeah Well, and then with that, you know, we were kind of talking about, you know, I think just culturally, just in the church itself, is just everyone running to liturgy and the, you know, like you said, the Christian calendar. One of the fastest two growing churches in our area are Anglican churches. And when I was growing up in this area, there were no Anglican churches at all. And it’s really funny because, you know, when I was in seminary, if there were people jumping off the Baptist ship to go somewhere, they were going toward the charismatic movement. That’s where they you know, Baptists are late adopters anyway, and so they were jumping on that in the nineties. And so I had friends I went to college with and seminary who ended up as assembly of God pastors. And now that shift is all the way the other direction because now guys I went to college with who planted churches or pastored a long time, they’re now Anglican priests. And so and even you see that in the Baptist world, like, you know, one of the VPs for the North American Mission Board, which is our, you know, mission organization for the country in North America, has written his last three books are basically liturgical prayer books. That’s what they are. And because For so long, you know, in the Baptist world in particular, when you said, hey, you need to go pray, most people didn’t know what to do. And I think what’s so attractive about liturgy is Hey, here’s this book of common prayer we’ve got. Pray this. Read this. Read these scriptures. Pray this prayer. And people open the book and they do the thing and then they say, Okay, that’s it. I’ve done the thing. And so it’s just been pretty amazing that really as as society and culture moves forward and fast, there’s a huge return to old practices.
Guest: Is that well speaking as the in the Presbyterian tradition We we had, you know, we kept the liturgy, we’re part of the liturgical renewal mo movement of the sixties and on. And and then the last ten years, you know, all the The mainliners are creating alternative worship space with less liturgy. And so it’s like we’ve had it, we don’t want it, we go back What in those circles that you’re talking about, do you also see it as a return? Is there more liturgical music, like the kind of sacred music that fits with the liturgical service, or are they keeping Or modern or you know, there’s that modern ancient thing. But what what how how’s the how has the music changed, would you say?
Guest: In the Anglican churches that I’ve observed, watch some of their services, talk to folks who are going there It’s very traditional actually. It’s not um, you know, because it’s it’s interesting to me, you know, obviously When I think about YouTube guys and where you are, I often, Derek, I often watch um Word of Life’s worship services. I do that on a lot of Mondays. I really like y’all’s band. It’s really ripping. That you you guys have got this guitar player that I love to hear. And but you guys have this real modern way of doing the liturgy And then Alan, I watched you guys uh watched your service on, you know, your Epiphany service. And it’s just traditional you preached on Herod. And man, you just you preached a banger. It was so good. And so we’re kind of right there in the middle, you know, our worship, we don’t shred, you know, like where life does. And yet we’re not super traditional, you know, Alan, like your church. Yet I see that influence of People, you know, Baptist churches are reciting the apostles’ creed now. Nobody would have would have done that 20 years ago. The Bible is your creed. That’s right. Amen, brother. It certainly is. And but that’s what’s so funny about it. Now, when you’re sitting in a worship meeting with folks and hey, we’re gonna we’re gonna recite the Nicene Creed this week. And there’s even, and I have to confess this, there’s something in me that goes, what? I know what that is.
Derek Vreeland: I don’t think we do that. We’re Baptists, don’t you know? I I wonder how many how many times do you have to answer the question about the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church? I would imagine. People are asking. Doesn’t it seem though culturally we’re at the the the full flowering of the enlightenment. Let’s reject traditions of the past. And Christendom has been dethroned. And in that vacuum, I think a lot of people just feel unsettled. You know, secularism is sweeping through the Bible belt in the South where you all are, certainly here in northwest Missouri. It’s it’s everywhere culturally. And I think it just leaves people with a little um ache in their soul, a little just sense of uh I need something that seems solid. And so ancient prayers, ancient liturgies, sacred music, I think for some people causes them to feel um the presence of God and some of that stability. Would you agree?
Guest: Yeah, I I think it is. You know, one of the benefits of kind of Christendom dying and, you know, nominal Christianity fading is it makes it a lot easier. for people to know where they are when you talk to them and they don’t feel any need to pretend. Um that’s the very refreshing difference culturally because, you know, 20 Twenty-five years ago when you talked to people in Georgia and upstate South Carolina, everybody’s Christian, you know And so people are real open to admit where they are. But at the same time, I think what that’s created, you talk about that there’s this ache, but there’s something missing And it just seems to me, especially as I have worked a lot with young adults and teenagers over the last decade. That they are anxious, they are overwhelmed, and it’s like, I mean, I don’t want to overstate this, but sometimes it can feel like, you know, A lot of young folks are on the verge of a mental breakdown or something, you know, because their world is and I think it’s related to that whole idea, everything’s an event, so what do I do when my events aren’t going very well.
Guest: So the um interesting phenomenon here that I’ve witnessed is Trion is a retirement community, it’s been a draw for retirees for decades. And this was a retiree church. And so when Regin and I were discerning our call here, we had to discern um that we would be the youngest people in the church and our kids would be the only kids and what did that mean for us. And yet it was an active, you know, church. And when I got here They had no um there really there wasn’t this pressure to say, okay, we gotta go get young families because only two young families have moved to Polk County in the last year and You know. So we actually had a strategic visiting process and it did not include reaching out to young families. And then they started attending. And from all uh Catholic, Roman Catholic tradition, um, but going back to the liturgy and where it is today, one of my favorite comments was said the other day in a class by one of our New Adults. Who’s got kids. And he and I the question was, what do you think of when you think of Presbyterianism? And what’s the first word? And he said, predictable. And he says, I grew up, I grew up, he said, you know, he said, I grew up charismatic. And you never knew what’s gonna happen on a Sunday. And sometimes for good and sometimes not so good. But I come to worship and I I can have a sense of what’s gonna come. And there’s and so there’s some comfort I’ve learned for people when I get bored with liturgy, let’s say I have to remind myself, you know, this crazy care, you know, creative out-of-the-box thing. I have to remember the disruption it creates for a community, they are coming and they don’t need any shock value of their worship. It’s like, yeah, I I want to be led into worship of God and and um and so there’s it’s important to have the form that gives people direction but uh to have the space though for the the creativity in what even is predictable, I guess.
Derek Vreeland: I think it’s very comforting when people know what to expect when they come to a worship gathering. Because to Rodney’s point, I think about the mental health, shall we call it a crisis among younger people? I think it is related to their consumption of social media stuff Um that creates all sorts of unsettling anxiety. But if they know they can come to church and there is going to be congregational singing, reciting of creeds, uh scriptural readings, uh sermons, an invitation to holy communion, that that can be a very stabilizing point for them. I I I think we we’ve experienced that in our congregation. Um, that we’ve sometimes we feel the rock and roll side of us, we sometimes feel tempted to kind of you know, jazz it up. But then you know what we do? WWE P D. What would Eugene Peterson do? And we think, no, this is this is what we do, like our Christmas Eve candlelight communion service. We’ve had conversations about, you know, let’s mix it up. And we’re like, but why? It’s beautiful, and part of what’s beautiful about it is it is the same year after year. Yeah, Peterson would say that.
Guest: He would say, um You know, you’re thinking about, you know, how do I how do I do this? How do I present this? And it’s like it’s it’s the same. It’s the gospel, it’s the story. Tell them The story. Yes. Yeah.
Guest: It’s like, don’t reinvent it. It’s like this pastors forum I’m on and every Easter and every Christmas guys are saying, How can I do this in a different way? And I’m always, man, give them the shepherds, give them the wise men They don’t need anything new.
Derek Vreeland: That’s what people are coming to church for.
Guest: That’s what they gotta hear.
Derek Vreeland: That’s right. That’s right. Hey, I’m curious as we think about the church presently, what are some of the things that we can do To create a culture of kindness in our congregations? Or what are some of the things that you see already happening in your church that is creating a culture of kindness?
Guest: Well, part of my responsibility at my church is to be responsible for small groups. And so we have some values at our church that guide us in our mission to make disciples. And one of those is we want to live connected. And so um that’s really why our small groups exist, so that people can know other people and uh be known and we have a a culture that we’re trying to create in our small groups. We’re a relatively new church. We’re four years old. And so we’re trying to make sure that You know, we have space to, you know, one week, one gathering, we’ll talk about the sermon and the scripture and how, you know, how do we do that? How do we live that? And then we’ll have a week where, you know, men get with men and women get with women. try to create space to, you know, hey, where’s it hard for you? How how are you doing with this truth? And um and I tell my our people all the time that we we don’t go to small group, we practice small group, and so we make space for that in our lives and we show up. And you hope in those places that people can find kindness of other believers. Um, I don’t have any rose-colored glasses about it. You know, you get in close proximity and from time to time people get on each other’s nerves and feelings get hurt and those kinds of things. But, you know, ultimately we’re called to reconciliation. So we might have to practice reconciliation the way the scriptures call us to do that. And so it’s just trying to intentionally create the environment. You and and it seems like to me that if you create the space for it. People learn how to be kind and that their participation matters to each other.
Derek Vreeland: I love that. I love that. Yeah, it’s it’s kindness is the work of the Holy Spirit within the congregation. And so if we are intentional about being present to one another and allowing the spirit to shape and guide us, you know. Part of the fruit of that is is kindness. Alan, what about you guys? How do you see that happening in your congregation?
Guest: Well, I I walked into a profoundly kind congregation and very welcoming and um So the spirit was already here. And I don’t I think it speaks to their faith. I think it speaks to, again, trying is a place people choose to live. So they they didn’t have to move here. They have chosen either it’s they and they had the opportunity to retire here. They’re in that stage of life or they can work remotely. So They made a decision to live in a county of 20,000 people uh in a town of 2,000 people without a lot of neighbors. That probably helps. Um, and you’re surrounded by the beauty of the mountains. I mean, you can’t help but Lift that that helps lift your spirit when you’re not walking the streets of the city and your encounters with people are reduced. I think that makes it easier, right? But all the things we always talk about. But one one thing that came to mind was simply rest. And Ronnie could tell us where in the Bible it says and quietness and rest is your salvation. But um but It it just struck me as you asked that question, if I’m gonna practice kindness, I do it better when I’m rested. Rested with sleep or rested from not being on social media or uh trying to win a debate or argument on Facebook. or and and really rested and understood this practice that quietude with God on that walk in the woods I have, you know, and and take away from my inner interactions with people that I’ve got to win. And, you know, Hurricane Helene came through here and our group was um was our town was, you know, we got hit. But we were up in Chimney Rock and we were just doing a little work and there was a volunteer. there from somebody else from somewhere else. I just said, Oh, I’m so glad you’re here. Uh, what brought you here? And and the response is, well, the government’s not doing anything, so I gotta be here. And I was about to launch into, well actually, you know, I live here and, you know, the gov the female you know, I was like, I just had to like uh and and it kind of got tense and I kind of decided not to talk her anymore. And then and then later we found ourselves working again together and You know, I just had to tell myself, I’ve got to set that aside. Uh, you know, I’m like, I’m I don’t agree. I don’t believe, you know. So how do we practice? That’s okay.
Derek Vreeland: I’m still thinking about that. Um Well, I like what you’re saying about about rest because if we are distracted, if we are weary then I think we’re completely closed off to the the work of the spirit to produce kindness within us. If we’re exhausted because kindness is is an activity, right? Kindness is is mercy in motion. Kindness is what we do. And if we don’t have the the the energy to be a kind presence in our neighborhoods, in our cities and towns, um, then we’re not gonna see it. So I I think that discipline of rest and the rhythms of rest, I think it’s a big part of it.
Guest: And I think for you to bring up kindness, I think that is probably going back to the beginning, the how we bear witness to God’s goodness and mission. Gosh, kindness today. And and That’s how we’re gonna make an impact. Or when we make an impact, that’s how we show love. And it and it boy, it’s work. Um
Guest: Well, you know, it kind of goes back to the first question, what’s changed in the last twenty years? And I think the real thing is, you know, we’ve changed. And You know, twenty years ago our conversation would have been very different because we didn’t know what we know now. And there’s a beauty And a power. I just use the word, there’s I’m comfortable with who I am now in ways that I wasn’t 20 years ago. And over the last 20 years, you know, regularly sitting on my couch with my cup of coffee and my scriptures And just cultivating truth in my life and trying to be around other brothers and sisters who can pour into me Um, it’s just a real beautiful time, you know, because I’m for different things now. than I was twenty years ago. I don’t like you said, Alan, that whole idea of not feeling like you have to win the argument or you have to be right all the time. Um, I’ve learned to be able to say, help me understand that. Help me understand where you’re coming from. And just asking those kinds of questions just changes everything. But You know, that’s been hard-earned. That didn’t happen. That wasn’t easy. In fact, there was a lot of suffering that was involved in the last 20 years to get to this place.
Guest: If we do another podcast, I think that’s what we talk about. It’d be interesting what we were what was on our mind 20 years ago about the church then. Boy.
Derek Vreeland: Oh, it’s funny. I think we should uh certainly set time aside to do another one of these because we just don’t have time to talk about everything. uh that I think would be interesting. And uh but thank you guys for joining me for this episode. Where can people find you online?
Guest: Well, if you’re curious, my church, Christ Fellowship Eastside, is at cfeastside. com And if you want to follow me on Instagram, you look for bluegrass and pancakes.
Guest: Let’s go. You can find our church, Tronpresbyterian. org, Alan L. Pertil on Facebook, and I don’t remember my handle for Instagram, but I’m out there somewhere. I’ll ask my son.
Derek Vreeland: All right, guys. Well, hey, let’s definitely have another conversation on the podcast. Uh, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Thank you, Dave. Yeah, thanks. Well, that’s all we have for today. Thank you for listening and joining in on this conversation. Go in peace and be kind.
This transcript was generated with AI and may contain errors.