Show Notes
In this episode of the Peaceable and Kind podcast, host Derek Vreeland welcomes Joyce Koo Dalrymple, a pastor, author, and speaker. They discuss Joyce’s spiritual journey, her experiences in ministry, and the role of women in the church, particularly in the context of the New Testament. Joyce shares insights from her Bible studies and emphasizes the importance of community and conversation in spiritual growth. The conversation culminates in practical advice on how to sow seeds of peace and kindness in the world, drawing on the teachings of Jesus.
Books mentioned in this episode:
Women of the New Testament by Joyce Koo Dalrymple
Jesus Passion Week by Joyce Koo Dalrymple
Tell Her Story by Niijay Gupta
Scriptures mentioned in this episode:
Romans 16
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Transcript
Narrator: Welcome to Peaceable and Kind, the podcast where we explore the transformative power of living out Jesus’ call to peace and kindness in our everyday lives. Each week, your host Derek Vreeland will delve into the stories, scriptures, and practical steps that help us embody these essential Christian virtues.
Derek Vreeland: Before we come back to the video, welcome back to another episode of Peaceable and Kind. I am your host, Derek Vreeland. Thank you for joining me for another episode, and I know you are going to enjoy This episode because I have a special guest with me today. But before we get started, please subscribe if you haven’t already and leave a rating or a review. That helps get the word out. It helps us grow our podcast. I appreciate that. And hit me up on social media. I am at Derek Vreeland on Facebook, Instagram, and the social media site. Formerly known as Twitter, hit me up and let me know what you think about the Peaceable and Kind podcast. And I’d love to hear feedback on what you think about the different kinds of episodes. Tell me if you like the interview style episodes or if you like just me. Hit me up on social media. Let me know what you think. I appreciate the feedback. Well, I have a great episode for you today. Our guest today on Peaceable and Kind is Joyce Ku Dalripple, and she is a pastor, author, speaker, and podcast host She leads Refuge for Strength, a women’s ministry focused on spiritual formation and listening to God in community. She’s a former television journalist and attorney, and she frequently serves as a guest preacher at churches and women’s events and retreats. Joyce received a BA from Stanford University, a law degree from Boston College, and an M Div from Metro Atlanta Seminary. She and her husband Tim have three daughters and live in Wheaton, Illinois. They adopted their youngest from China, and Joyce hosts a podcast called Adopting Hope. It’s a podcast that discusses foster adoptive and spiritual parenting She’s also the author of two Bible studies, Women of the New Testament and Jesus Passion Week, and she has two more books coming out next year. Joyce, welcome to Peaceable and Kind.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Oh, so good to be with you, Derek. We kind of first met each other as like authors through Nav Press. So it’s really good to reconnect with you in this way.
Derek Vreeland: Yeah, we share a common publisher and so we met at a nav press writing retreat. And uh I didn’t I had not known who you were. I think I had seen something you had posted online But no, I think actually what it was you were speaking, I think, at an event with a pastor friend of mine. So I I knew you by name Uh, but when we met at the retreat, I thought this is somebody I really want to get to know because I appreciate your energy and your positivity. You’re such an encouraging person
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Oh, well thank you. And I could say all the same things about you. So um and I first came across you when I was doing some research for my Bible study, women in the New Testament. I think I quoted you in it. Um yeah, um when you I was I was looking up NT right and what he was saying on the subject and um came across something in a blog by you and I before I even met you, I had you quoting.
Derek Vreeland: Oh, I was so honored. So honored. So yeah, we met at this retreat, and then a couple of months later, um I’m in Wheaton. Um I was recording the audiobook version of Centering Jesus and I had wrapped up early And the audio producer had said, Well, you have the afternoon off. Anything you want to do? And I said, Well, I’ve never been to Wheaton College. And he’s like, oh, you have to go by the Wade Center if you like Tolkien and Lewis. And I said, Oh, I’m into all that Oh, you gotta go to the Wade Center. And so I find myself, he just drops me off at Wheaton. You know, I’m pulling it up on like Google Maps to even find out where to walk around So I wander into the Wade Center and the director had greeted me, but then you know I was just kind of walking around and then a bunch of people came in behind me. I didn’t see who else was there. But I’m in that larger uh space. It has uh the wardrobe from Lewis’s home in there. And the director begins to kind of start a presentation because there’s ten or twelve people in there. And I look over at who’s in the room and I see you on the other side. Was that with you were with your sister, I believe?
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: She was visiting and I I literally live down the street from the Wade Center. And so we walked down there and um so it’s my my backyard and you’re kind of you know hanging out. And so that was just such a serendipitous moment. So funny because it was I I forgot that you lived in Wheaton.
Derek Vreeland: I knew that, but I totally forgot about it. And so I see you across the room and I’m like Joyce! And you’re like, Derek! And I don’t remember what I said next, but it was really loud. And often in public I forget that I have this like preacher voice, my wife is often like, Shh, you’re being too loud. But I’m like, Joyce, and I’m like, what are you doing here? And I look over and the director who was giving her a little presentation is just giving me this scowled look.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Yeah.
Derek Vreeland: Can you give me the shh sign? And I’m like, oh.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: And then we take selfies together with like CS Lewis’s desk and like we’re all coming up. Like in the background of this presentation that you saw these.
Derek Vreeland: We were like teenagers back in high school. And it was, I don’t know, that was a special moment for me. That was that was so fun.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Yeah, that was.
Derek Vreeland: Well, I’d love to um talk to you a little bit about your spiritual journey. I don’t know how many of my listeners are aware of you and your story and your work. And, you know, I think we are a storytelling people. And I think we are the stories that we tell. So tell us a little bit about the story of your of your spiritual journey. I’d love to hear more.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Yeah, well I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, and my mom was a believer. She’s the first believer on both sides of my family. Um my parents are immigrants from Taiwan. Um so she, you know, I think after I I’m the firstborn um started taking she went back to church because she wanted to raise me and my younger sister in church. And so really from a young age at this very tight knit Chinese immigrant church, I came to know Jesus. Um and I don’t remember a time in my life when I didn’t know him, which is really such a blessing, I think. And I think I just grew in We had really strong Bible studies in this Chinese immigrant church in Atlanta. Um, and a really great youth director. And so from that point, I just kinda like had this hunger for um kind of having a a deep relationship with God. Um and that’s kind of You know, our hunger for God like waxes and wanes as we it ebbs and flows, just like in any relationship, right? We have times when we feel closer. But I will say through my life, I have felt like I have been I’ve wanted to know like what his plans are for me. Sure. Um, and it’s not been what I thought that it would be. Um, I’ve had lots of kind of um turns and detours um in uh my career and the different moves we’ve had, but I keep coming back to like Jesus is the way the truth and the life. And the way like I don’t need to know my plans. And in my spiritual journey, it’s sort of like he is guiding me. And um as I’ve gone further in my spiritual journey, I’ve actually like really loved seeking and receiving spiritual direction. I don’t know if your listeners are familiar with spiritual direction Um, but that has really deepened my faith where I kind of pay attention more to this the presence of God throughout the day. Um, and I kind of examine where in my day do I feel closer to the Lord? What’s drawing me to him? What are some When do when do I feel farther away from him? Um so it’s sort of paying attention that he’s always at work. Um he’s always orchestrating things and he’s always speaking to us. He’s a God who reveals, wants to reveal more of himself to us Um, and so through spiritual direction and kind of paying attention to to, you know, just ordinary things. Um He’s revealing himself more and more to us.
Derek Vreeland: So when you were young, um, what did you want to do or what did you imagine God’s future was going to look like for you? Let’s say when you’re in high school or or college I mean what what direction did you think your life was gonna go?
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: I first thought I was gonna be a journalist. So I worked on my school newspaper, both in high school and college and did all my internships in that So that was sort of my first career. I um back in the day when people still watched um TV news, like your local news television at six o’clock or whatever, um, I did that. I was actually a TV reporter. um for three years right out of college. Um great training for basically anything, talking to just, you know, kind of random people, interviewing people for stories. Every day is different. And I thought that’s what I wanted to do. Um and then um I actually was praying about do I go to seminary or law school because at that point I kind of felt like I don’t want to kind of be on this fast paced career of journalism all the time. And I wanted to go deeper in, you know, whether that’s a legal case that you spend a lot of time on and you can develop and research. And I’ve always done ministry kind of as a as a layperson. Sure. So I was trying to decide between seminary and law school Um, went down the law school route and practiced law for eight years. Um, and then had a pivotal moment, actually, Derek. My father unexpectedly passed away This was about nine years ago. Okay. Um, and he was not a believer. It was my mom who brought us to church. My dad was not a believer. We prayed for him. I mean, for decades. And it was on his deathbed that he became a Christian.
Derek Vreeland: Oh wow.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: And we got to witness that. It was just the kindness and grace of God that you know, he in the very last moments of my dad’s life kind of spoke to him and drew him to himself. I had um kind of a moment of like life is so short. And we never know, you know, the number of our days, uh, but I wanna live for him, like totally. Like it was a resurrender of my life. To Jesus and just to say, whatever you want, Lord, I just want to follow you, whatever that is. And I had sort of gotten a little bit, I don’t think jaded is the right word. But I felt like I wanted a deeper purpose, you know, seeking for something more. And I didn’t know what that was. And it was then that like the Lord really was like, okay, I think it’s I think it’s time for you to do full time ministry. And I went to seminary like that very fall. My dad passed away in the spring and I enrolled in seminar in the fall.
Derek Vreeland: How exciting.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Yeah.
Derek Vreeland: And so were you raised in a Christian context that um encouraged and empowered women in ministry, or was that was it more of a struggle to think of yourself as a vocational minister, as a woman?
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Yes, that’s a great question, Derek. And as a Chinese American woman, that immigrant church that I grew up in was so good in so many ways. But I didn’t see female Bible teachers or, you know, um speaking from up front, from the pulpit. And even, you know, upon graduation, you know, I saw women do ministry in campus ministries. Sure. in women’s ministries, um, but I didn’t really see women leading in all of the spaces. Um, and certainly not as many women who looked like me. And so I think Part of my wrestling with whether to go to seminary or law school, like I didn’t have the imagination to be like, what it like, what would I do after seminary? You know? Um And so I think that that was part of what maybe held me back at that point earlier. And certainly the life experiences I gained in the process were very valuable in ministry. God uses all of that But I really even even upon going to seminary really wrestled with the question of like, Lord, what do you what does it look like? Like most of the people I was in seminary with Um actually all of the all of the other classmates were men in my seminary and they were all, you know, pastors or going to be pastors. And so I was like, what am what are you calling me to, God? Um, and that actually leads to to the book Women in the New Testament because um I when in my wrestling with God and seminary and my calling I went and studied every single encounter that Jesus has with the women in the Gospels. I wanted to see how Jesus saw God sees women. And um it was From that, that I saw that Jesus was so counter-cultural and it in his day was very patriarchal. Right. And he continued to sort of allow Like women came and sat at his feet, Mary of Bethany as a disciple. Um and that was not done. Rabbis did not have female disciples, and there were women as part of his entourage From Luke 8, verses 1 to 3, there lists several women who are following Jesus from town to town, and he’s teaching them alongside the men. And he empowers them. I mean, you can see that some of the first people who spread the good news were women. Right. The Samaritan women at the well. You know, she’s the first one to go to non-Jewish people to spread the good news. And then you obviously have Mary Magdalene at the tomb. She’s the first witness of the resurrected king. And She’s commissioned by Jesus to go and tell the brothers, and she’s called the Apostle to the Apostle.
Derek Vreeland: That’s right. She was the very first one sent. And uh in my home office, I have a set of icons And this icon, I know we’re audio only, but this is an icon of Mary uh being the apostle to the apostles, being the one by Jesus to preach. the first Easter message. And I know that in the church there are disagreements about the proper role of women in ministry. And I’m sympathetic towards a tradition that has been male-only priests and pastors, and I understand where those that are more complementarian come from. But for me, as I wrestled with it, biblically, theologically, experientially, at the end of the day, for me, I could no longer say to a woman, you can’t serve. in a capacity if God has called you and gifted you. So if a if a woman has received the spiritual gift of teaching and leadership Why would I as a male pastor hold that back? In fact, if I’m following in the ways of Jesus, I should be a part of lifting up and empowering women to fulfill what God has called them to do. And so I I always want to work towards unity and I know there’s just division in the church over this issue, but for me I have put a little stake in the ground. I I just I I feel compelled as a follower of Jesus to lift up. uh my sisters in the faith who have a c a real call from God.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Yeah, yeah. And I see it in the pages of scripture and What Jesus is doing with the women that he encounters, they are often on the margins and they are often overlooked. And he sees them Um, and he, you know, they’re he brings them to the center in some of these stories. And they’re often a model of faith for the disciples. And I think As women and men working and serving together, I think we are actually reflecting fuller the image of Christ, the image of God. And I think as the body of Christ, if we’re, you know, not all using our gifts, like the whole body of Christ misses out. You know, it’s men miss out, you know, for women not using their gifts and women miss out. from the joy of growing in their gifts and practicing it and blessing the whole body. So I’m with you in that. And um Yeah, and just I think that’s a lot of what this Bible study of women in the New Testament is really looking it’s not debating things, but it’s really looking at what Scripture says um through the stories of these women.
Derek Vreeland: And that’s my challenge for people who are perhaps on the fence and they’re trying to understand, you know, so what is uh the role of women, uh particularly as related to positions of authority and leadership and teaching, is just take a fresh reading of the scripture. And so I think your Bible study, Women in the New Testament. is a helpful way to do that. Just take a a fresh reading, I think both of Jesus and Paul, because I know you’re rooted primarily in the Gospels in your women of the New Testament, but you know, Paul is sometimes pegged as being misogynist and but scriptures like um where Paul exhorts women to learn quietly and in full submission well Just the fact that he is advocating for women to be educated was countercultural. And of course, any student in the ancient world would learn in a posture. of submissiveness to the teacher, to the rabbi. So I see I see Paul following in the footsteps of Jesus and empowering women. Absolutely. And there are the verses where he’s saying, well, I don’t permit women to speak. But perhaps that’s a little bit more localized because you read that in First Corinthians like 14, but in First Corinthians 11, Paul’s saying, now when women prophesy, when they speak in church, here’s how they should do it.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Yeah, so you can’t be on one side say, okay, be prop prophesy and then be silent. Yeah. So you gotta kinda kinda look at the whole scripture and you see women prophesy all the way back, you know, to Miriam and Deborah and the Old Testament. Um and speaking of Paul, I’m glad you brought him up because the last session in my Bible study is actually on Romans 16 because I want to touch on the early church and all of the women Listed. It’s a greeting section, the last chapter of Romans, and we often kind of just skip through that. But Paul names Ten women in the greeting section of the letter of Romans, and arguably this Romans is his Magna opus, and he gives it to Phoebe to be the letter carrier um to Rome to share, you know, the doctrine of from the book of Romans and um Phoebe probably had to explain, you know, what it meant. Um often the person who carried the letter was the one who answered questions about it. Um and then in the very last chapter you see all of these women who co labor um with Paul in the early church. In the beginnings of the church, women were there in some prominent
Derek Vreeland: roles. Yes.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: And so it’s it’s just kind of it’s all there in scripture.
Derek Vreeland: And it’s so countercultural if people know the context of the first century Jewish and Roman world. where a woman’s voice was not held with equal value to a man’s voice. Now there were women of privilege, there were wealthy women. who had more of a voice, but the average room woman in the Roman world and the Jewish world. There for example in the law court their testimony was not considered reliable simply because they were a woman and so here’s Paul entrusting a woman with this letter. She would go to the Church of Rome. And not only deliver it, but would read it and as you said, answer all the questions.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Explain it.
Derek Vreeland: What an important role. uh for a female leader in the early church.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Yeah, and Paul is following the footsteps of Jesus who entrusted, as we said earlier, Mary Magdalene Um, with the news of his resurrection. I mean, this is the biggest moment. You know, this is all of redemptive history is leading to his resurrection. And uh he entrusts it to a woman where their word wasn’t credible, as you said, in a court of law back then. So it is just radical. And I think for us we We can sometimes miss that because of the times we’re living in and how radical Jesus and Paul was at the time.
Derek Vreeland: Such a radical countercultural movement. I found uh Nijay Gupta’s Tell Her Story uh the that came out last year uh really helpful in this regard. I encourage people check out Gupta’s work and and others. Um I love that you write Bible studies because I’m currently writing a Bible study series Um, what led you down that direction? There’s lots of things, and you have a journalistic background, there’s lots of things you could do writing-wise. You could do a Substack, you can write Uh fiction books, nonfiction books, but writing Bible studies is somewhat unique. What led you down that road?
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: I well, first of all, um I’ve been in Bible studies since I was in college and led Bible studies since then and often wrote kind of like I would adapt Bible studies and kind of write them for our group in our context. So it’s very natural for me. Um, you know, as I did this deep dive into this particular area, as I mentioned and in seminary and wrestling with my colleague that I really felt like I gained so much in all of the research. You know, when I put Bible together a Bible studies, there’s looking at um some of the original language and the context and the commentaries, but people don’t have time for to do that if you’re just a person with a full-time job. So like being able to distill that down. And this is where my journalism background comes comes to play and even my legal background, because you do a lot of research and then you you kind of draw out what you feel like are the main things, the highlights um into and writing them in a way where they’re good for they’re open-ended and they’re good for going deeper. Um and And these are also designed to do in small groups. So when you’re in conversation, you’re actually not only learning from, you know, the the material on the page, but well from one another. So the questions are designed to stimulate conversation where each of us have the Holy Spirit in us. And so when we’re talking to each other, we’re kind of you know sharing one another’s stories and we’re seeing perspectives that Again, you know, we’re together the full like the body of Christ. And so we learn from all parts. And you you could be a baby Christian and be part of a Bible study and you have the Holy Spirit in you and you’re like you’re coming at it fresh. And so Believers who’ve known God for a long time, they’re learning from you. I mean, it’s just beautiful. Um, so that’s why I led Bible studies. There is organic kind of spirit dis led discussion where I think there’s a lot of life and it builds community. So I love that for all of those reasons.
Derek Vreeland: I share all those passions. Uh with all the books that I have written. I’ve always included discussion or reflection questions at the end of each chapter because I think, you know, preaching is important. The lecture style monologue is important. Um, of course, reading and learning from books is important, but I think that dialogue that you have in a group around a Bible study or a book. just like you expressed it, that that learning from one another, that is so powerfully formative. And we don’t get that if we’re sitting in a coffee shop reading a book by ourselves or listening to a sermon on Sunday morning. As good and as valid as all that is, there’s another step of formation that happens in community. And I love the questions in your Bible study because there’s there’s a little bit of an art to writing questions that will provoke conversation where you’re where you’re guiding people to to wrestle um with the content and the material. So I love your Bible studies. I want people to get those in their hands. Before I let you go, talk to me a little bit about what we can do to sow seeds of peace and kindness in our world, our podcast peaceable and kind, that’s that’s our goal. So what would you say are just some of the things we can do to plant those kind of seeds?
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Hmm. I love the subject of your podcast and this question to you. I keep going back to Jesus and how he models it. You know, I think Jesus sees things that we don’t see um in people and he often is able to draw out those things um that within us that are good, that are kind, that are peaceable, by the way he just gently loves us, by the way he asks questions.
Narrator: Yes.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: Um by the way, you know, he tells parables Those are all engaging ways. And he does that. You know, I feel like it’s such a, I don’t know if art is the right way, but like he both convicts and he loves. There’s both truth and there’s grace. Um, and so in as we we can’t just speak truth without the kindness and the grace part of it. And so even when we feel like we are right and we are con we have strong convictions about something If we speak it in love, if we share that because we love this other person, they can feel that from you I think that goes a much, much longer way. And some of that is just seek for seeing people through the eyes of Jesus
Derek Vreeland: It all goes back to Jesus. That is so, so true. Well, I want people to go out and get copies of your Bible studies, Women of the New Testament, and Jesus Passion Week. And I want people to keep their eyes out for your new Bible studies. Bible studies when they come out. How can people uh find you online? What’s the best way to find you on the internet?
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: I am on Instagram and Facebook. So you can just look up my name, which is an unusual name, Joyce Kudow Rumble and. there and uh both places. I am not on what was formerly Twitter, so you won’t find me there.
Derek Vreeland: But you can find her on Instagram. I follow you on Instagram and uh I love it when you post pics of places you’re speaking and preaching. And uh I just want to encourage you in that and just say Joyce that I love you and I believe in you and uh I think God is using your voice to sow a lot of peace and kindness in our world.
Joyce Koo Dalrymple: I appreciate that. Blessings to you and all the listeners.
Derek Vreeland: Well, that’s all we have for today. Thanks for listening. Go in peace and be kind.
This transcript was generated with AI and may contain errors.